Paul Colaianni joins us for a Q&A episode on Emotional Abuse. We discuss the challenging emotions that come with leaving an abusive relationship, and how understanding these emotions can be the key to reclaiming your personal power. We also delve into the complex territory of setting boundaries in abusive relationships - a stark contrast to the way boundaries function in a healthy relationship.
We shine a light on the healing journey post-abuse, focusing on self-reflection, self-validation, and the concept of re-parenting oneself. Paul candidly discusses his personal journey toward healing and offers invaluable advice to anyone looking to break free from abusive patterns.
You can learn more about Paul here: loveandabuse.com
Website: Emotional Abuse Coach
Instagram: @emotionalabusecoach
Email: jessica@jessicaknightcoaching.com
{Course} Identify Signs of Abuse and Begin to Heal
{Free Resource} Canned Responses for Engaging with an Abusive Partner
Paul Colaianni joins us for a Q&A episode on Emotional Abuse. We discuss the challenging emotions that come with leaving an abusive relationship, and how understanding these emotions can be the key to reclaiming your personal power. We also delve into the complex territory of setting boundaries in abusive relationships - a stark contrast to the way boundaries function in a healthy relationship.
We shine a light on the healing journey post-abuse, focusing on self-reflection, self-validation, and the concept of re-parenting oneself. Paul candidly discusses his personal journey toward healing and offers invaluable advice to anyone looking to break free from abusive patterns.
You can learn more about Paul here: loveandabuse.com
Website: Emotional Abuse Coach
Instagram: @emotionalabusecoach
Email: jessica@jessicaknightcoaching.com
{Course} Identify Signs of Abuse and Begin to Heal
{Free Resource} Canned Responses for Engaging with an Abusive Partner
Welcome to the Relationship Recovery Podcast hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes in narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others, and heal the relationship with yourself so you can learn to love in a healthy way.
Speaker 2:Hello and thank you for being here today.
Speaker 2:On today's episode, paul Colliani joins us to talk through some of the major themes in emotionally abusive relationships. I compiled a list of questions for us to go through that have come in from actual clients that I work with, instagram followers that reach out asking for support and emails that I've received over the years. The questions that I have put together really bring together a lot of the themes in emotionally abusive relationships, and hearing Paul's insight really brings together how difficult it is to process a lot of these things and therefore how hard it is and can be a time to work through it and get on the other side. But once you start to understand the themes and accept the reality of what it is like to engage with an abusive person, it really can offer up a lot of freedom in your thinking and in the life that you can have post abuse. I am very grateful for Paul's time and that he chose to dive so deep with us, and I know that you will enjoy this episode. Hi, paul, thank you so much for joining me again today.
Speaker 3:I'm honored to be here. Thank you, jessica.
Speaker 2:Can you tell us a little bit about you and what you do?
Speaker 3:Yes, I am the host of Love and Abuse and that is a show about relationship, navigating the difficult relationship, control, manipulation, emotional abuse and trying to get through it, and I try to approach it from both angles the victim side and the perpetrator side Just to help people understand both sides of that. I also host a show called the Overwhelmed Brain. I've been doing that for about 10 years and that's all about gaining your personal power back and honoring yourself, honoring your boundaries and dealing with toxic people and also a lot about relationships in there as well.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I know I actually ordered your book the other day, and so do you have three books out on Amazon Two Kindle and one Paper Copy and a Kindle book. Can you tell us a little bit about those?
Speaker 3:I do have three. I never thought of it, but I do have two digital books that I came out with a long time ago. One's called Clear the Path to Happiness and the other one is I can't remember what it is. I don't really see too many sales from those. They're really old yeah.
Speaker 2:I ordered the Overwhelmed Brain.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And then the real book that I created in 2017, the Overwhelmed Brain. That is a book that takes you from A to Z. I call it the A to Z of self-empowerment. It takes you from where you might be in a lower disempowered state and takes you into the empowered state, and I talk about all kinds of stuff in there and I'm pretty transparent and vulnerable in there as well. I tell personal stories to help you connect, but that's for anyone that likes what I talk about in the air and really wants to get into the meat of their own personal development.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think I'm writing a book as a compliment to that work and people just to like I can listen, but sometimes if I sit and read it and I start circling things, it just feels a little bit more here.
Speaker 3:It's a different feeling too. It's a different sense of turning the pages and stuff. I get that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think so. Today we're going to do an episode on basically a Q&A of questions that I've received, either on Instagram, questions that I've received personally on email from clients, questions that have been asked in or that have been formulated through my one on ones of clients, but I actually I write them down too and, just like as I was talking about the book with you, it's really a way to dig our teeth into some of these things, and that's what I hope that this episode will be is a way to just break apart some of these things and these questions that we can hear a lot of theory and we can think about these things in our head, but I've heard a lot of your episodes on love and abuse, where you answer questions and I feel like you're really good at pulling out the themes and getting past, like the words that are there, but really more about what is this saying?
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you. That's tough sometimes. People are in very complex situations and trying to get to the very crux of what's going on in their relationship or what they maybe need to do next, because some people are seemingly impossible situations, and I get that. So it is tough sometimes and it'll be interesting. We'll tackle these today and see where we go.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let me start with the first one and I'm just going to go right into it. This one actually came from a client that I had. I still work with her, but this was at the beginning of our work together. She had written this, like maybe after two sessions together, and wrote how do you stop missing the good parts of the relationship? I know he was a bad person. I don't plan on going back, but I've been having a lot of dreams about him and crying a lot. Lately I find myself waiting by the phone for an I'm sorry and I miss you texts. That's never going to come. How do you deal with it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you want me to answer that, or do you want to tackle this first?
Speaker 2:I'll go to fall to you first what first comes out to you. So this doesn't turn into me reading them and answering no, that's good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll take it. The question was how do you stop missing the good parts of the relationship? Basically, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, basically saying like I'm not going to go back. So that tells me all right. So why don't I give my synopsis of the question? I think this says I'm at the point where I'm ready to not go back. I've understood that I am ready for that part. A lot of times we're not ready for that yet. I know there are certainly many times I was not ready for it. So this reads to me and okay, I know who this is coming from, so I remember where the space she was in, but it was. I understand I can't go back, but I'm missing them and I keep romanticizing the good parts of the relationship. How do I deal with this? This basically says how do I stop romanticizing the relationship? Which also means I am trauma bonded right now and I'm working through that trauma bond.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of people are riveted to their earphones right now. Let's think Like, yes, that's what I want to know too. The way I look at this is it's very difficult because of the trauma bond which is the ups and downs. Like you get the high of the love and the connection and the feeling good and being treated well, and then the low of getting all that taken away and being emotionally abused or whatever, and does create like a drug effect. It's sort of like I'm on this drug and I'm withdrawing and I can't take it anymore. I need that drug. And then the drug kicks in or you take the drug again, which is the high, and you keep going back and forth, back and forth, and so when you leave the relationship it's all withdrawal. I'm in this withdrawal stage. I want that high again, I want that love, I want to feel worthy, because when they were good they were great and when it wasn't good it was terrible. But I really missed those highs, I really missed those feelings.
Speaker 3:And the unfortunate answer is you have to grieve the death of the relationship. And it sounds direct and it sounds awful when I say that, but this really is the death of a relationship. And when you grieve a death, you have no choice. They're gone and it's sad and you have to cry and you have to miss and you have to do to go through all the negativity, the feelings that you have and the thoughts that you have and the questions why couldn't they just see that I was suffering and just stop that behavior? Why couldn't they do that? Why couldn't they just be nice? Why couldn't they be that way all the time?
Speaker 3:But it really does come down to grieving the loss that, yeah, there were good times and romanticizing those good times isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, it's nice to know that there were good times, it's nice to know that you did have something sometimes, but there is a death. It's the death of the relationship, and knowing that you will never have that again, as awful as that feels and I don't want that for anyone but as awful as that feels, it does help start the healing. I will never have that again, not with this person.
Speaker 3:And once you start doing that, once you start grieving and letting yourself cry and definitely missing, because if you lose someone you love, if they did die, this is what you'd go through, and so I see this as the death of something, the death of a relationship, that the grieving process needs to happen and it will heal. You will heal. It does take time, just like any grieving process. There are stages to it. The challenge is is that because the person is typically still alive that we think there might still be a chance, and so we keep that hope, we keep that wish, that prayer, whatever it is? We keep that in our mind and we come slightly obsessed that it might happen.
Speaker 2:And that's where we can really excuse the language, screw ourselves Well what we're really saying is they're going to like they're holding on the hope that they're going to change.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. Or like she said, or your client, whatever they said, that just waiting by the phone, maybe they'll call and say I'm sorry, and you know, things will change. And it's so important to put in your mind that they won't, even though it might not be true. They might change one day. But the changes have to be very. They have to be so pronounced what is the word? They just have to be so big. The changes have to be so big.
Speaker 3:It's sort of like someone becoming enlightened and they finally say oh my God, I realize how much I've been hurting you and you shouldn't be with me. I mean, that's an enlightened state of mind right there. You shouldn't be with me because I hurt you and I need to work on that. I now realize this and if you get that kind of attitude or that kind of approach from somebody that has hurt you in the past, then maybe they are going through changes. They need time, they need to work on this stuff, but you're going to feel the difference. You're going to see the difference. You're going to see that, wow, they really are changing and they're not trying to convince me to come back and they're not trying to say I'm sorry, I'll change, I'll change. They're not doing any of that stuff, they're just a different person.
Speaker 3:So when you see that difference, then you know maybe there can be a rebirth of the relationship, maybe there can be a restart, but it has to be big and it has to. You have to feel it. You have to feel it and see it. You will see, you'll know it. When you see something different, like wow, they never did that before. Now that's not the type of person they are.
Speaker 3:I look at it as like in my program I talk about, when the emotional abuse or heals, it's like they're completely, they did a 180. They don't even know themselves anymore, like that person doesn't exist anymore because they've gone through such a big change. So that's my answer in a nutshell. For this person it's very difficult because it means accepting something that will never be anymore. And that's also a good thing, because you don't want to stay on that emotional drug that takes you through the highs and lows, because that means you're always withdrawing, looking for the highs, and once you get past that and the fog starts to lift and you realize, oh, I don't want that in my life anymore. I want less complexity, than you start building better relationships.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what's really standing out to me from your answer, which was like it was so clear about what the various stages of grief that we're going through, probably all at one time at certain times is that you need the space to be able to think clearly.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah, and by being away from the toxic element.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's so key in healing is like being able to have it is probably the one thing you don't, we don't want, right, like in this one. This question, it's thinking about missing them, waiting for that, it's like, I think, allowing yourself to feel those feelings of not waiting for it anymore, which is like that's the death.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know the real answer here is love yourself as you want to be loved and, you know, connect with that inner child. A lot of this stuff in psychology that we, we say, are therapists, for that is the real answer. But going through, I mean, sometimes you just need the hard truth, and that is a very hard truth for somebody to have accept. But it can. It can and will get you past it, because there's a level of acceptance that once you choose to accept it, then the healing can really begin, even though the grieving is actually beginning as well, which is almost the same one of the same.
Speaker 2:Right. The next question. I have sort of piggybacks off of this one and it's you mentioned it a little bit when you were talking through like what, what my client in this one might have been saying to herself. Like, like, why doesn't he see this or that? You know that, why doesn't he think that he messed up? It's, this question actually came in on Instagram. A lot of people send me random questions on Instagram and I respond to the ones that I can, but the one, like, as we all know, a lot of them probably have a lot of context that is missing at times. This one was very clear. It was why don't abusers notice how they hurt you? How can abusers not realize the damage they caused you and the relationship? Even when you tell them they hurt you and have proof they hurt you, they insist they have not hurt you and it's your fault and brought it upon yourself.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm laughing because this is probably one of the most popular questions that.
Speaker 3:I've seen over the last 10 years. I've done my stuff and I don't know if your audience has heard me before, but I come from the other side of. I used to be emotionally abusive in my relationships and so I have a very unique perspective under this question and I've had to reflect on it for a while. Like you see her crying, you see her, why don't you stop? You see her hurting and I just I think I created an episode on this recently but I finally came to the conclusion after all, my reflecting on this and I believe this is 100% true for a lot of emotionally abusive people is that they 100% believe they're right. They 100% see the other person crying and believe that they're doing it to themselves.
Speaker 3:So when I was in that space of guilting my partner, for example, like what are you putting in your mouth? Why are you eating that junk food I would necessarily say that I would do it more covertly, do manipulative things and try to make them feel bad and guilty, which I'm definitely not proud of. I don't feel good about that at all. But I had to learn a lot from that time and during that time I did. I thought I loved my partner. I thought I loved her only if she did what I wanted her to do. And if she did what I wanted her to do, then we'd both be happy.
Speaker 3:So why isn't she doing what I want her to do? That was my belief. Why isn't she doing it? She'd know. You know, I look at it as or when I was, when I was like that, when, when I wanted her to do something, it was for the the best, it was for the best for both of us. So I would see her doing something wrong quote wrong and think if she only did it this way, we'd both be happy. So I really believe, I honestly believe, that I was correct, my thinking was correct, and that when I saw her suffer, she was doing it to herself because she wasn't doing what I told her to do. And it sounds so. The way I'm talking right now sounds so toxic, so backward, so ridiculous.
Speaker 2:So now but it's how people think, but it's absolutely how they think, that's how I thought back then.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's how I thought back is very selfish thinking. So, instead of like, my new definition of love is supporting the other person's happiness, supporting their choices, even if I disagree with them. And back then, my definition of love is we would both be happy if you just did what I told you to do, if you just did what I wanted you to do. And so, even when I saw them suffering, I honestly, I'm telling you, I honestly believed they were causing their own suffering because they weren't doing what I wanted them to do. And it's such a toxic perspective.
Speaker 3:But that's the reason and I've seen that over and over again and the people I work with, the emotional abusers they actually want to heal, they really believe, or they have believed, that they were right. And so I went through many, many two decades of thinking that I was right and they were wrong. And if they aren't doing what I want them to do, then they're only causing their own suffering. And that's why a lot of emotionally abusive people will not change, because they believe the other person is causing their own suffering. As toxic and backwards as that sounds, but that's where I was and I believe that's where most well I know most of the most abusive people are because they think they are giving the other person love. They think they're treating them right. But they also think they're right when the other person's crying. Not my fault, it's their fault. You just want you to do what I told you to do. Why you just be this way? So you're causing your own suffering. That was my attitude back then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just to piggyback off what you said at the beginning about you know this was you. You're very clear about that on your podcast. But also we did an episode about how an abusive person can learn to love healthy and you talk so much about your story on that episode. I will make sure that it's in the show notes so people can go and listen to it and hear more about your journey. But in that episode what I took away from it was how hard the inner work was and deep to begin to change your patterns and the way that you saw the world right Like it's almost like every thought had to be questioned.
Speaker 3:I was a different person. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that took a significant amount of work. And also I think you know people can hear today how sincere you are and like how much that, like all of that, mattered to you to work through it and to become somebody that you are proud of, and a lot of people are not. They don't do that work, you know, and I just it does take a unique person and, I think, a lot of commitment to be able to say I'm not happy with how I'm showing up and I'm going to change it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the biggest challenge for me was I mean, this is really really come down to letting go of your attachment to being right. I mean, I was so attached to my righteousness, I was so attached and getting what I wanted, that there was a selfish, it was all selfish. It was important for me to be happy, regardless of their happiness, and letting that go was tough, Like I don't want to let go. That means if I let her do what she wants, then she might do something I don't like and if I don't like it that'll make me unhappy. All selfish thoughts. And so if I'm unhappy, then I won't be able to feel satisfaction and comfort and joy in this relationship and I don't want that. So I better control it, better find ways to control it, and so that puts the other person through misery.
Speaker 2:It. Actually. That reminds me of a disagreement I had with my partner a few months ago. He was on a trip which I was completely fine with. He went to Austin to get a tattoo. He was having his own, like a great, great time.
Speaker 2:I said something about like I've traveled along with my daughter for so many years at this point, especially being a single parent, like that's what our thing is. We travel and go on these little trips together and she has so many passport stamps and they're like it makes me feel really proud. And I said like, oh, like I really want to do blank with Charlotte, you know, or whatever it was. And a whole conversation got spurred about like asking permission, and he didn't say I needed to ask permission per se, but he definitely said that I he was like you know, like you wouldn't run it by me, like, or like what, if you're not considering some things, and I'm like I've traveled along with my kid for six years, so and I can trust that I can consider all things that need to be considered. You know, and I was like this sounds like it's more about you Like this is your insecurity, like, but I need the ability to travel with my child and not have to ask permission, because that's important to me. And it sparked a day long thing and the next one, I, and then I took space because I've learned that that's what I need.
Speaker 2:When the conversation came back, he said like I realize that I'm trying to prevent you from having this idea. So that I can be comfortable when you are fully allowed, you know, in this world to do like you're saying, I need the ability to book a trip and travel and just tell you know, it's nothing out of the ordinary. I'm like I'm not going to like the Sudan. Like you know, I'm going. I just want to be with my kid. I felt grateful, like that he was able to see what he was doing and change it and that's a healthy person. It still took him a lot of patterning and time, even though he's arguably a help, like a healthy person, like someone who wants to look at his behavior, is in therapy, questions, things Like it still took a while and I think if he was here he'd probably say that he's still also thinking about that and it's a thought that comes back, but it's really just his own insecurity.
Speaker 3:He sounds like a dreamboat. He has a moment. Yeah, I'm sure. I mean for him to say you know, I thought about it and I realize, and to reflect like that I mean that's something I try to teach over and over again is that emotionally abusive people stay focused on other people instead of themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And they just constantly want other people to do what they want instead of just focusing on themselves, asking themselves what they want and reflecting on their own boundaries and values and life goals. And that's once he's able to sound like he was able to reflect back and think OK, so why am I having feelings about this? What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What is the problem? How deep does this go? And it sounds like he did the right thing. He reflected.
Speaker 3:I mean, we're all going to have our trigger moments. I'm going to get emotionally triggered about something I still do today. I get emotionally triggered about something and I usually catch myself and then reflect and think OK, what's this about and how is this a big deal? Why is this a big deal to me? Why am I thinking like this? And I really dive into it? Because I don't want to carry these emotional triggers. I mean, I used to be triggered all the time and it was a huge burden. That was one of the things that I was able to let go of when I started healing. So good for him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And like I said, like it's I don't want people to think that like it's you know it's just butterflies and rainbows all the time but like I think that because I've healed from an emotionally abusive relationship of three and I also grew up in abuse that I've learned that I need to have some boundaries of what's important to me and not fall into I know what happens when I fall into what somebody wants for me, especially if I this is what I'm saying like I need and to listen to myself, like to actually listen to myself and what I need and what I want and what's what I value.
Speaker 3:And speak up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, there was a very visual reaction. Actually I remember it like very vividly. It was there. My body was just like no, like, like nope, we're not doing this, like you're not asking for something big.
Speaker 3:That's great. I thought you were going to tell me if it was a PTSD response of like fear or something, but you jumped right into like a boundary. That's not happening yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, my, if, I felt the PTSD response inside, but what came out of my mouth was a boundary, and when I couldn't communicate it, I took space, like I said I'm not well, I can't continue this conversation, I'm very triggered, like I used some of that language. That then gave me enough space to ask myself what was going on. And then I got to the no, I'm not that. No, like I said, like we're talking about what? Two weekends a year or one week out of a year when I'm doing something like with my kid? No, like this is a no, you know.
Speaker 3:And then it's a trust issue to me. You're too Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:For him to say you are a good parent and will take care of your daughter or his daughter too, or no, it's just mine. Even your daughter. So you are a good parent. You'll take care of your daughter and if you run into an issue, you'll figure it out.
Speaker 2:Exactly Because you have first the five years you were traveling before you met me. Yeah, that's.
Speaker 3:That's great. I'm glad to hear that turned around and went in the direction it did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And he does feel like it was a moment for him where he was able to say or start to question some of that, like the whatever patterning that he had around, like the role, like the roles that we play in relationships.
Speaker 3:Great, you're doing the work. That's good.
Speaker 2:We did have a question about boundary, so it probably it's probably good to go to that one now, and so this one came in on Instagram as well and I did answer them, but I am curious to hear what you, what you think. It's a little bit of a longer one, but I think it. I think that she framed it really well and she says does intent matter when it comes to setting boundaries? I am far into the concept of boundaries and I'm not sure if I'm approaching it in the right way. When I talk about it, it feels like boundaries are for you, not other people, which makes sense because I'm trying I am not trying to control them or give them ultimatums, but when I set a boundary, it's to prove a point in some way, like to show that I will not tolerate people behaving a certain way. It's not really because I actually feel like I shouldn't stay in the situation, but because I'm trying to be the person who doesn't stay in situations like this. Am I over analyzing this? And so I would say you're not over analyzing it, but you are really questioning your belief around what a boundary is, and boundaries in the context of an abusive relationship are not the same boundaries that we set with people that are in our life, that are healthy, that we want to keep in our life, you know, or that we want to show up for well, or, like in my just my example around, like I'm not going to respond to you while I need to take some space and figure out what's going on with me and then I'll respond to you. It's like I want to keep you in my life, so let me set a boundary around, not just responding because you want me to.
Speaker 2:In this moment, like in this question, what I think, what I read when I read it and then responded to them, was they're trying to understand what boundaries are in their life and that they don't really have them to start. So it's going to feel foreign and out of control at the beginning, regardless, but because they're trying to, what I see is break the cycle of abuse. They're therefore trying to act in the way that they feel like they should act to break that cycle. They're trying to set boundaries with this person, but they are basically but I think what they are saying like they feel selfish, like they're doing it, so the other person's behavioral change, which obviously we're not in control of. But I think that this is more like how do I set a boundary with an abusive person that is hurting me, not how do I set a boundary with someone that I want to keep and maintain the relationship with?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, there's a few things going on in here, but the first question was does intent matter?
Speaker 2:and oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the rest of the question. She didn't really talk about the intent, or maybe she did, I just done it, or maybe they did not understand it. But, um, I'll, I'll answer the best this. I'll answer this the best way I believe it was spoken. It was meant just like what you just said. Absolutely I agree. And I'm gonna take it a step further and Say there's two things that are important.
Speaker 3:One boundaries are what you will and won't accept in your life. It's all about you. Every time you honor a boundary, that is telling the world, telling people in the world this is what I will and won't accept in my life. That's nothing to do with you if I choose not to accept. That's my choice. So there's one, actually three things.
Speaker 3:The second thing is I wouldn't look at it as breaking the cycle of emotional abuse, even though that could be a Benefit of doing this, but I would just see it as honoring yourself. If you look at it as breaking the cycle of emotional abuse, then it does have a different intent. But if you approach it as I want to honor myself, I want to choose what comes into my life and what doesn't, regardless of what the other person is doing. This is what I will and won't allow them in my life. And so if we look at it with the intent of Breaking the cycle of emotional abuse, then it kind of has a narrow focus. I'm gonna honor my boundary to break this cycle, even though there might be the benefit of oh, I'm Empowering myself right now, getting my power back Absolutely. But I don't like to look at the focus of to break the cycle of emotional abuse.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm that nation be in your life anyway, even though it is in a lot of people's lives. But the goal isn't to break the cycle. I believe the goal is to honor yourself. So if you are in a cycle of emotional abuse, honoring yourself will remove yourself or Stand up for yourself, depending on the situation, and say no, I won't allow that into my life. I don't want that kind of attitude or not attitude. But if you disrespect me I don't want to disrespect, so I Don't want that in my life. And if you continue to disrespect me, then I can't be around you. I mean, I'm simplifying it. I know they're very difficult situations to deal with, but I look at it as you honoring yourself. So they can choose to honor you honoring yourself or not, but you're doing it for yourself. You're not doing it against them, you're doing it for you. The third thing is Telling somebody what your boundaries are as a gift to them. It is absolutely a loving gift that you let somebody know how you want to be treated. So when you say you know I don't want to be talked to that way, oh the, the person that loves you and honored you on every yourself is gonna say I'm glad you told me that this is the healthy ones saying this. The unhealthy ones Don't say this. The healthy ones say I'm glad you told me that, so I know how to treat you and I know what you want and I really honor what you want in your life because that makes you happy. So when you say this is my boundary, not in those words, but when you say something that honors yourself, the people who love you and care about you and support you are going to say, oh, that's what I want for you and that's a gift you give to that person. So they know how to treat you. If you don't give them that gift, then they treat you any the anyway they believe they should treat you now. I think the underlying message here from what this person wrote is that I'm in an emotionally abusive situation and I need boundaries so I don't, I no longer get emotionally abused. Pretty sure that's the bigger picture in this message and I think it really does come down to Lighting. Like she said. You know they see me hurting. I need to let them know. I think she's had that or he's said that. So I want to express this boundary.
Speaker 3:I think it's important to ask the question. I've asked this question on my show before Ask the question Do you realize what you're doing is hurtful to me? Do you realize what that, what you just did, hurts me? Do you realize that? I think it's a very basic, easy question, because Maybe they don't know, or maybe they do know and they don't care. But either way, you're giving them an opportunity, you're giving them the gift to answer this question, to reflect upon it.
Speaker 3:Do you realize what you're doing is hurting me? And then they can say well, they might turn it back, I'm not hurting you, you know, I may invalidate that. And then you can say well, I just want to let you know it does hurt me. Well, you're not hurt, they're gonna minimize their inner validate. Well, if you can't believe that I'm hurt, then there's nothing I can do about it. But I'm telling you right now, whether you believe it or not, what you're doing is hurting me. In fact, when you invalidate my experience, that hurts me. When you say that I'm not hurting, when I feel hurt inside, it hurts to me. And I know some of these conversations won't take place because it turns into a big argument or it becomes a dangerous situation. You have to pick your battles wisely, absolutely.
Speaker 3:But I do think it's important in most situations to ask that question Do you realize what you're doing is hurting me?
Speaker 3:So if they say, well, no, you know they get upset or whatever the question might be well, now that you you know, the follow-up would be now that you know, will you please stop doing it?
Speaker 3:And that would be a good follow-up, because now they know they're hurting you, whether they believe it or not, but you feel hurt. Now they know they're hurting you. So if they continue to do the same behavior they know they're doing it and they know that you're hurting and when you get the same behavior after they know they're hurting you, after you've let them know what your boundary is, then you can't expect any more from them. They've shown what they're going to be and who they're going to be from that point forward. Unfortunately, if that's the case, if they continue to hurt you and they know they're hurting you, now you're in a situation where you know somebody knows they're hurting you and they keep doing it. So where does that lead you? It leaves you with somebody who doesn't care if you're hurting, and that's when you might have to make a bigger decision in their relationship. But we can go into much detail with that, but that's kind of where I go with that person's question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's now on us to listen to that answer. If we say do you know that? This hurts me. You have to be willing to hear the answer. What the answer doesn't have. If it doesn't have, oh my God, I'm so sorry. If it doesn't have, no, I didn't realize that. If it does come with a lot of blame, it's on us to really see it and say they don't care. And I need to make, I need to leave this relationship. I need to figure out how to leave this relationship. I need to get support in leaving, whatever that might be.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a hard truth sometimes when you ask that question. I had somebody write to me and say I asked that question. I asked that specific question. She said to her boyfriend or whoever, do you know that when you do that or say that, it hurts me? And the guy said, yeah, and what? And she said, well then, why are you doing it? And he said, well, it's fun. Wow, I know. And right away she said I knew exactly what I needed to do. From that point on she learned what she needed to learn. She learned a hard truth. She asked that one question. She learned the truth.
Speaker 3:And somebody who thinks it's fun to hurt you. You have to make harder decisions. Maybe after that point you have to make a tough move for yourself. I don't necessarily say, hey, you have to leave the person. I'm just saying that you might have to have a serious discussion after that because of that is, if you have somebody in your life that you're supposed to love and trust and feel that you can be yourself around and feel vulnerable around, and they say it's fun to hurt you, it's the wrong person or the wrong situation. It needs to be changed, it needs to be talked about, it needs to, maybe completely, maybe you need to separate, maybe you need to do something like that. But things have to change from that point on and you know that if it doesn't change, it won't change.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, absolutely, you know somebody else. One of the other questions I had was somebody sent a text and it was the answer to this question was answered in this last one, but I'm going to read the text, because it goes back to the same answer. And the text that they sent in said well, the pretext was the manipulation game is so strong, how can I get them to see that, which we can't? You know, like we can. There's a few things we can say, but we can't force them to see it the way that we see it or the way that it's actually happening for us. The text that she sent me was a screenshot that said you just aren't taking responsibility for your feelings and how you react to them. You'd rather focus on me being the problem rather than how you manage your own emotions.
Speaker 3:Was that the abuser saying that?
Speaker 2:Abuser saying that yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, more invalidation, more minimization.
Speaker 2:You're upset because of you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, like you said, we just answered all of that, but I do have one little thing to add to. That is that when you're in a situation where somebody's so manipulative and so clever with their words, usually smarter people are the. I can't say this is true for everything, but smarter people tend to be more manipulative because they're smarter, and so you'll get smart people in your life. If they are manipulative too, then they're more difficult to deal with. So, even though intelligence difference between smart and intelligent, I think.
Speaker 3:But let me add to that what she just said, which is your emotions, there's feelings that you have that come up when you're being manipulated. You have this thought, this feeling, your instincts. They're always right. They're thoughts, your feelings, your well, maybe not always you're right with their thoughts, but your feelings and your emotions, your instincts. There's something there and it might just involve saying I don't know what you're doing. You know you're talking to the person that's hurting you. I don't know what you're doing or how you're doing it, but it doesn't feel right. And there's nothing wrong with saying that Doesn't feel right and they say, well, that's too bad, it doesn't feel right. And you could say that doesn't even feel right, it doesn't feel loving, it doesn't feel supportive and it just doesn't feel right. I don't know what you're doing, I don't know how you're doing it, I don't know if you're. You don't have to say any details. You don't have to say any details. I don't know what's going on right now, but it doesn't feel right to me and hopefully somebody will say well, let's talk about that, what doesn't feel right, and then you can talk about it.
Speaker 3:Or they know, the perpetrator doesn't know. Or I mean, the perpetrator knows that it doesn't feel right, but they don't care because they have an agenda. But just speaking that it doesn't feel right at least validates yourself. Let me just validate this feeling I'm having, because you don't know when you're being manipulated. Sometimes you just know something's not right here. I don't feel love and connection and support. I don't feel that I feel something else. I feel like I'm going along with somebody else's agenda. It doesn't feel right. So just saying it doesn't feel right, even expressing that, can hopefully lead to a conversation. But if they're really manipulative, they're always going to turn it back on you. I have a popular episode called the turnaround game. They always turn it back on you, always turn it back on you, but you it's your fault, you're too sensitive, you're this, you're that. So yeah, that's all I wanted to add on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think that was super key because somebody listening to this that is thinking, well, how do I handle this? Or like, wow, even like the mess of, like how we think about it in our mind. I imagine that they felt very validated by that answer.
Speaker 3:I think sometimes we're just gaslit and confused and all that. So we don't know really how to. We don't even know if our thoughts are real. But our feelings are real, our emotions are real and our instincts are real. They're happening for a reason. The hairs in the back of our neck are standing up for a reason and you just have to validate that. And I'm feeling something here. It doesn't feel right and be okay with that. It's, it's, it'd be okay with that feeling. Just validate that in yourself and then express it. If you want to, if you want to get into that quote, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know we're short on time, but the last question I have actually really does piggyback off of this, which is it's just interesting. It's like it just shows how all these things go together, because when I was pulled together these questions I just wasn't thinking about if they go together or not, because we've done a few podcasts before. I know you can handle, you know, whatever, I guess, thrown your way. I was thinking more about like what questions do I hear a lot in sessions and one-on-one sessions with people, and but this one, then last one, does piggyback exactly off of where we just ended with the last answer to those two.
Speaker 2:It was and I know we can't get into the ins and outs, probably in this podcast of like what their upbringing could have been that led to this place, and nor do I think it's like you know. I don't know that we have to, but the question goes why do abusive people need to be reparented? I know this is a loaded question, but every abuser I've been with expects in some way to be reparented or that I need to make up for what they didn't have. They act out and expect me to validate them, be in anger and help them work through their feelings, even though they're hurting me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a deep one.
Speaker 2:I know, I know, so let's give a half a sentence.
Speaker 3:Let's give our succinct answer here. That was me. I'm laughing because that was me. It's like, oh my God, I can relate to this.
Speaker 3:I remember my wife when I was married. She said I don't want to be married to a little boy and that struck me hard. I thought what are you talking about? A little boy? I'm a man. But I was so like I would always ask for permission. How you doing It'll be clingy, I'd be needy, and it did. It felt like I needed a mommy. Yeah, I would look back and say, oh, mommy, here's daddy there, mommy there. Daddy never got the never they never received, or he never. She never received the attention they never received, the parenting they did when they were younger. We could go into that for sure. Like you said, what it comes down to, when I was, there was a huge fear of abandonment and rejection, huge, huge. I was just so insecure. I used to be jealous and possessive too. I was lucky to heal from that early on, but I was just so afraid of them leaving me. And I heard a term yesterday I never heard before. It was obsessive love disorder. I'd never heard that before.
Speaker 2:Like love addiction, right yeah.
Speaker 3:And it probably is the same thing and it is very much what you just talked about. It's or at least, at least that was my interpretation of what I heard yesterday. I think that was me. I just needed to feel constantly loved and made to feel love. I wanted to feel worthy in their eyes. I wanted to feel like it was very clingy. Like I said, I think I was always looking for that nurturing. You know, maybe I never got it when I was a kid, or I was ignored or neglected or whatever. Like yeah, that's a great way to put it. I mean the person who wrote that they've done either their research or they just they have an inner wisdom.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because they figured this out, because that's what it does come down to for some and these are only typically with the covert, manipulative and abusive people, not the overt ones that just can lose it and call your names and put you down, and overtly. But the covert ones, like I used to be, they very passive, aggressive, very passively doing manipulative behaviors. But yeah, why do we need, why did I need re parenting? Why do they need re parenting? They need that constant reassurance that you're not going, because they have a fear, and this is, I'm going to say, 98% of the time. They have a fear of abandonment, they have a fear that they're going to be alone. They're fear of being alone, maybe fear of rejection, fear of this huge insecurity that they're carrying around. That needs to be explored in themselves.
Speaker 3:And I'll go back to what my wife said when I was married. She said I don't want to be married to a little boy. I asked her what that meant and she said I want you to be able to feel comfortable in your own two feet and your own shoes, and if you want to eat, you don't have to ask me permission to eat. You don't have to say are you okay? All the time. You don't have to doad on me, you don't have to be so clingy. She was looking for a secure man, and this may happen more with men. Now that I think about the people I've worked with is that they become highly insecure and feel like, if they're not being loved, like they're going to be left behind or and I know there's more to explore in there for sure but, for me it was if she didn't constantly remind me that she loved me.
Speaker 3:I had to try to pull it out of her and what that basically was was me using her as my only source of energy and happiness, and that's what I did. I used somebody else as my only source of energy and happiness. As long as they were in my life, I was happy as long as they were happy. I was happy in a toxic way, because back then I did things to try to make them happy by people pleasing and all that other stuff. But yeah, this is hard to really put in a very succinct, condensed answer, but I do look at it as a fear of abandonment, a fear of being alone, a fear of somebody leaving you and being so obsessed about feeling love and being in love because it has been missing in your life that the next person that comes into your life. You got your tendrils on them and you want to keep them in every way possible. You don't want them to leave you for too long. You don't want them going out with friends. This happens, you get jealous and all that stuff, and what it took for me to finally break that was realizing the person I was with chose to be with me and continues to choose to be with me, and it does come down to trust that I have to trust that she wants to be with me without having to get that reinforced over and over and over again and just really quick.
Speaker 3:The idea that emotionally abusive people keep a tight grip on the person they're with really pushes them away, as opposed to letting them free to be themselves, which draws them closer, and it's the opposite of what happens. The closer I tried to pull her, pull my partners toward me, the farther away they wanted to get, and it's just the opposite. I teach so many of the opposite things in my programs that they don't realize the emotional abusive person doesn't realize that the tighter the grip, the farther away they want to get, the bigger the rift you create and the looser the grip, the more that you let somebody be themselves. That usually people want to be with people that let them be themselves. People want to be with people that allow them to be free to express themselves, and all that just to be an independent, autonomous person. So when that happens in a relationship, it usually strengthens the bond.
Speaker 3:When the grip is too tight, it usually squeezes them right out of your grip and then they're gone forever. It depends on how long it goes on for. But yeah, that's a really great question why do they need it? I hopefully that has answered it. I think 98% of the people that need that quote re parenting just have this huge fear or huge fears, and that they need to work on those things. There's a lot of therapy they need to go through or reflection for sure, refocus back on themselves. Self parenting is really the answer to that and that's a whole another topic for another day.
Speaker 2:Totally yeah, but thank you for giving that answer and that explanation and sharing like how you viewed it in your story and I think that, even though it wasn't like you, like I think you and I both know there's so much more to that question and I actually think you covered a lot of that on our podcast where we talked about more of your story and what it takes for an abusive person to heal, and I will definitely put that link in the show notes so people can listen to it. I don't know for sure right now that the answer to that question is in there, but I think there might be some more tidbits to just put on top of the answer that you just gave that.
Speaker 2:Yeah sure, yeah, great. Thank you so much for joining me again, paul. I always love having these podcasts with you because it feels more like a conversation with a friend. A lot of the time, but we also hit on all these deep topics. People always tell me how helpful they are, so that's great.
Speaker 3:I love these Q&A's. I think the questions are the most important aspect, because that's what people have. They have questions. How do I deal with this? How do I work through it? So I'm open for next time. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Awesome, thank you. Before we end, can you just tell people how to find you?
Speaker 3:Sure, you can go to lovinabusecom for the Lovin Abuse podcast and you'll also see a link to the healed being program over there If you have a person in your life that actually wants to heal. I have an episode in Lovin Abuse that you might want to listen to. Should I share stuff that helps the emotional abuser? You might want to listen to that first, before you share something with somebody that may not want to heal or may not think they need to heal, but that's in there too. It's called healed being. And, of course, my other website, the Overwhelmed Brain, or a podcast all about building you or rebuilding you, empowering yourself, emotional intelligence and getting through all life's challenges.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I know you'll be back and thank you again for your time today.
Speaker 3:I appreciate you, Jessica. Thank you.