Tina Swithin, author of Divorcing a Narcissist and creator of OneMomsBattle.com, has been committed to helping others divorce abusive partners for decades. Together, we dissect the complexities of divorcing a Narcissist and how to protect your children.
Our conversation is rooted in our experiences and knowledge, but this isn't a source for legal advice. You should always engage an attorney on the legalities.
In this episode we discuss the trials of securing a family court attorney with a deep understanding of emotional and psychological abuse cases. We discuss the necessity of maintaining financials separate from custody decisions and suggested strategies for engaging with an abusive co-parent in a court setting.
If you need help with your case, you can connect with me at: https://high-conflictdivorcecoaching.com/
Connect with Tina here: OneMomsBattle.com
Website: Emotional Abuse Coach
Instagram: @emotionalabusecoach
Email: jessica@jessicaknightcoaching.com
{Course} Identify Signs of Abuse and Begin to Heal
{Free Resource} Canned Responses for Engaging with an Abusive Partner
Tina Swithin, author of Divorcing a Narcissist and creator of OneMomsBattle.com, has been committed to helping others divorce abusive partners for decades. Together, we dissect the complexities of divorcing a Narcissist and how to protect your children.
Our conversation is rooted in our experiences and knowledge, but this isn't a source for legal advice. You should always engage an attorney on the legalities.
In this episode we discuss the trials of securing a family court attorney with a deep understanding of emotional and psychological abuse cases. We discuss the necessity of maintaining financials separate from custody decisions and suggested strategies for engaging with an abusive co-parent in a court setting.
If you need help with your case, you can connect with me at: https://high-conflictdivorcecoaching.com/
Connect with Tina here: OneMomsBattle.com
Website: Emotional Abuse Coach
Instagram: @emotionalabusecoach
Email: jessica@jessicaknightcoaching.com
{Course} Identify Signs of Abuse and Begin to Heal
{Free Resource} Canned Responses for Engaging with an Abusive Partner
Welcome to the Relationship Recovery Podcast hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes in narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others, and heal the relationship with yourself so you can learn to love in a healthy way.
Speaker 2:Hello and thank you for being here Today. Tina Swithin joins me to discuss how to divorce a narcissist. Her book Divorcing a Narcissist, which came out many years ago, guides us through the story and the history of what it took her to divorce a highly toxic, narcissistic, abusive person and discusses in detail a lot of the things that don't make sense, that end up needing to make sense or needing to fit and find its way into a strategy when you are divorcing someone who will do anything to make this more complicated for you and for your children. Tina Swithin is an advocate, she's a blogger, she's an author and she runs OneMomsBattlecom. I gained my high-conflict divorce coaching certification through Tina Swithin's program. She is a rock star in this field, but I know that if she was listening to this intro, she would probably also say she's an exhausted rock star. I've always appreciated that. Tina is very open with how heavy the stuff weighs on her heart, which she writes about in her weekly or bi-weekly emails that she sends the community. Her Instagram page is a wealth of knowledge of what it's like to divorce a narcissist or to parent with a high-conflict individual. She deeply discusses and burns, sheds light on the child custody issues that come with divorcing a narcissist.
Speaker 2:Before we get into the podcast, I want to note that Tina and I talk about not one thing. Tina is legal advice. This is not a podcast of legal advice to take and run to your attorney or run to the family court system and say this is the way it goes. This is an informed conversation by two people who work in this field. Tina has a lot more knowledge than I do and we are both here to support you. We want to make this easier for you and we want you to understand what you're working with so you can keep yourself and your children safe. I also want to touch base on One Mom's Battle, which is Tina's website, and Tina's platform brings awareness and educates on issues within the family court system and post-separation abuse as it relates to co-parenting. If I had found this website six years ago, the entire trajectory of my divorce would have been different the whole thing I didn't, and I found my way, and now I help people find their way.
Speaker 2:But I just want to say that if you are overwhelmed and if you are looking for a resource of how to get started, I would just start reading her blog, I would read her book and, of course, you can reach out to me for high conflict divorce coaching or you can reach out to somebody on her website. She does have a whole core heart of trained coaches. The link will be in the show notes and, if I'm not the right fit for you, I'm confident that there is somebody that is working with a coach or a strategy partner can save you a lot of money but, more importantly, can save you a lot of stress. Nobody that does this work does it just because they want to do it. Everyone that does this work does it because they have an emotional connection to it and they want to help.
Speaker 2:I know and I hope that you will enjoy this episode and if you do need any more support, you know where to find me at Emotional Abuse Coach on Instagram, EmotionalAbuseCoachcom. You could always email me at Jessica at JessicaNightCoachingcom. Hi, Tina, Thank you so much again for coming on and joining me.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Happy to be here.
Speaker 2:Can you quickly introduce you and One Mom's Battle and tell us a little bit about what you do?
Speaker 3:Sure, I refer to myself as the accidental author and advocate. I was simply a mom who found herself in the family court system back in 2009. And because I couldn't afford to hire an attorney, I was forced to learn the system and to represent myself in family court. And then, about two years into my battle, I started a blog which I titled One Mom's Battle, because back then that was around 2011,. No one was talking about this, so I truly did believe I was the only one experiencing this nightmare of family court against a high conflict individual. And then my blog was discovered, that kind of morphed into books that I've written, and now the One Mom's Battle community has become a worldwide lifeline for so many survivors who are walking the same path.
Speaker 2:What do you think is the entry point for someone that finds One Mom's Battle? Are they researching how to divorce a narcissist? Do you think they're looking at more of the most recent legislation? What do you think brings them in?
Speaker 3:I think they're looking at narcissists. For sure and that's kind of always been my sub-tagline is One Mom's Battle divorcing a narcissist, and I think that so many people hear that word narcissist right now. It's everywhere, it's inundated, sometimes a bit too much and not used properly. But I think they may hear that word from their therapist and they're searching, trying to make sense of what they're currently going through, and so that's where a lot of people connect with us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I first found you a few years ago, but it was late in my legal battle. I had already gotten divorced, I already had legal custody of my daughter, but I didn't know what post-separation abuse was and it was still obviously going on, because that's how this goes. But I remember feeling and I know from reading your book that you felt this way too, of like none of this makes actual sense, right? Yeah, I have, like these paperwork that shows this and I have this. You know, he hasn't even seen the kid in a month, but this is what's happening and it's just like nothing made sense. And I think reading your blog was the first time that things started to click and make sense of like, okay, wait, actually this happens to other people too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that there's a lot of misinformation or misperceptions about what happens in divorce.
Speaker 3:I remember in the very beginning, friends and family telling me it's going to be really intense for a year and then you will both start new chapters and everybody will go on with their lives and things will settle down, and so I kept waiting for that to happen and after a while you start to question am I part of the problem? You know what is this, and that's where you don't have enough education on the transfer of power and control from the abusive relationship into the family court system. Post separation abuse that doesn't end until the children age out of the system, and many people are shocked to find out that even when you have kids that are now adults and you're no longer bound by family court, these high conflict toxic individuals will still find ways to harass you or to let you know that they're still there. So it's difficult for people to grasp and you can't make sense of it. I, when I've been talking to legislators, I say help us to infuse common sense into family court, because it's void, it's not there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that we're going to end up touching on that a lot today of like what you know, what is void in family court and what isn't as easy. What we have perceived should be easy is never easy, it's never logical, it doesn't actually work out the way that you think it would based on. You know, if you told 12 people and you thought those 12, those 12 people all agreed, oh, this is what makes sense. It's likely not going to go that way. So you know, I am On this podcast.
Speaker 2:I do want to talk on some of the beginning steps of beginning to divorce and narcissists, because I think that's the place where a lot of us start, and I just want to be clear to anybody listening that when I say divorcing a narcissist like as Tina you pointed out, that has become a buzzword it is a personality disorder and I like to sometimes say just abusive personality, because divorcing a narcissist or divorcing an abusive person or an abuser, if you are divorcing a narcissist, you are dealing with emotional abuse, verbal abuse and it could even be physical abuse, and so I would say just put the word narcissist on the back burner, don't go Google traits, focus on the fact that you're divorcing.
Speaker 2:You're in a divorce that doesn't seem to be making sense, and so what would you say would be the first step for somebody that is like, okay, I need to get out of this. This feels emotionally unsafe, this isn't good for my kids. We're fighting Things like there's financial abuse. What would be if someone is sitting at home? How do I even begin to think about leaving? What would be your first suggestion?
Speaker 3:It's going to be research with credible. Wherever you can find One mom's battle the work you do, jessica, anywhere you can find resources to help educate you on the family court system. Baby peace is a wonderful organization, movement of mothers, national safe parents organization. Start getting involved in those organizations from an educational standpoint to learn the reality of our court system. Because if you go in blindsided believing that, or if you go in you will be blindsided because, again, logic is missing from the equation. Radical acceptance that strategy is so critical in these situations and that we would logically believe that the court is there to protect children. But radical acceptance is grasping the fact that the court is more focused on parental rights than what is truly in the best interest of the children. And so really researching your local system, researching high conflict individuals, just in general and there is a lot of good information out there. If you do Google divorcing a narcissist, you will find helpful resources.
Speaker 3:But what I would caution is there comes a point where you have the information that you need and beyond that you're just. I picture somebody in quicksand where they're just getting swallowed up by this and it becomes their life and that can also keep them in a state where they're paralyzed and they're afraid to move forward. And you will hear. When you're doing the research, you will hear horror stories. But I describe it it's almost like pregnancy and childbirth. When you're pregnant and people are describing their horrible labor stories, you're like why would you tell me that? I think it's important for people to keep in mind that we do see success stories and we do see positive outcomes. But you have to really go down those rabbit holes of education to have the tools that you need to start moving down this path. But when you hit that point where you have all of the information, you might want to back out of the groups or to press pause on reading other people's horror stories on social media.
Speaker 3:I will tell you back when I started this journey, no one was talking about these things and today it's almost overwhelming, to the point that there are times I have to push pause on my own social media channel and step away from it just to find my oxygen mask. If all of these resources would have been available back when I was in my horribly abusive marriage, I don't know that I would have left and that terrifies me for people. So I think it's important to say it is always the right decision to leave, because you and I'm going way off topic, but I think this is really important to end this question on. I believe that giving your children the opportunity to see what healthy looks like, even if it is only 50% of the time and I don't believe even if it is 50-50, custody, I don't believe that's permanent. I think that having your child be able to see you in a healthy environment and making a way for yourself, otherwise they would never have that vantage point, and so we see cycles repeat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's such an important point because so if it's not the hook of what will I do on my own or I don't have money, it's the hook of what will. My children will be raised in an environment with just one parent and I will be struggling and I just think it's like I can see it with my own child that it is so much healthier for them to be able to live in a home that has values that even they have a choice in creating at times.
Speaker 3:Right, right and no one's walking on eggshells, and that's the situation that so many of these kids are growing up in, and I hear from so many parents who say but if I stay, I can protect them. Not really because your kids are absorbing that, as this is what marriage is or this is what a relationship is, and I don't think that message is healthy.
Speaker 2:Right, Absolutely yeah, and I know that you mentioned in your story. You know that you went pro se and so would you recommend people going pro se now?
Speaker 3:Here's what I would say. When I was in it, it was a nightmare I raised my fist at the sky and, you know, cursed, you know God, the universe, everybody so many times because it felt so unfair and because I had never stepped foot in a courthouse in my life and it was foreign territory and incredibly overwhelming. And in hindsight, I am so grateful that that is how my journey played out, because had I been forced to hire an attorney, I don't know how I would have done it, but I don't think the outcome would have been the same, which is that my children are safe. I firmly believe that I am the best voice and advocate for my kids, but had I been given more notice about my ex is the one that filed for divorce, and so I was, in a way, blindsided by that process. Had I had time to actually plan, I would have started learning the system and I wouldn't. You know, I wasted two years walking in there expecting everyone to do the logical thing.
Speaker 3:So now there are resources out there for people in pro, say, and I think if you're making that decision, whether it's, you don't have a choice or you think you can do it. You know, I see successful outcomes that way. I will say, though, there are some courthouses where I would never walk into the courthouse in pro, say. You know some of the bigger cities, downtown Los Angeles, you know? I think I would have been eaten alive in there with some of those attorneys. I happen to live in an area where they are more friendly to people in pro say. So I think there's no one size fits all approach for any situation under this umbrella, but that is one to definitely take into consideration, and then if you're dealing with a system where you start to realize that there's collusion or corruption, it can be even more challenging. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think for those that go with a lawyer, a lot of people will say like I don't even know how to start finding a lawyer.
Speaker 2:And I think now, or at least in the state I live in in Massachusetts, there are lawyers that well.
Speaker 2:First of all, the one mom's battle Facebook group, the private Facebook group has it is a resource for go speaking to other people in the community and finding a resource for a legal counsel. That and also hearing who is not the best person to go with or who is judgmental of your situations. But also in Googling at least in Massachusetts, lawyer for narcissistic abuse, you do get some resources. At the very least it's somebody who, under you, can tell if they're writing an article about it that they might understand what they're dealing with, or at least a high conflict personality. But going into the first console I always tell people is it's a big deal and you have to be able to be prepared to make sure that that lawyer knows what they're dealing with, because they're not dealing with just a regular everyday person. Are there some questions or, I guess, like some key points that you tell people to look at or to ask a prospective attorney about if they are considering hiring an attorney?
Speaker 3:You know, off the top of my head I don't have a list, but I do have a list that I created that I give to clients with lots of questions that they can ask. You know, I want to understand have they ever won a case against someone based solely on emotional abuse or psychological abuse? I want to know what their definition is of a high conflict case and if they've read the Santa Clara study. That's one that I often ask when I've sat in on attorney meetings with clients, because the Santa Clara study people can find it at npdandlawcom but it really goes into the fact that it only takes one person to create a high conflict situation. You know, if you have an attorney who is very biased, that you know just believes you're two people, who can't get along and doesn't understand post separation abuse, you're going to be very challenged. You're going to feel like you're butting heads with your own attorney.
Speaker 3:But one thing I would really emphasize to people when you are looking for an attorney, a lot of people make the mistake of leaning on their attorney as their support person, almost like they would do a therapist. People have to remember first of all, attorneys as a profession and I don't typically make big blanket statements but there's a high level of narcissism in that profession and so if you are emotional in that meeting with the attorney, it's like oil and water that is going to set things off on a bad path. They will form an impression of you whether that is right or not. It is reality. And so you know, really understanding that these attorneys truly see these cases as business transactions. They are a case number to them and they are not your friend and they are not your therapist. You know, really going in prepared and are able to articulate the nutshell version of what your situation is, keeping things as factual as possible is really important.
Speaker 2:You know, I love what you said about that they're not your therapist, because I actually remember feeling like my attorney was my therapist and getting frustrated with but not really being able to have a voice to say. This is what I'm frustrated about, because I was so caught up in the emotion of not feeling like they were advocating for me so I wasn't able to even see it clearly of like wait, what I'm paying them and if I don't feel like I'm getting proper representation, I can make a change. And two like she doesn't need to care about if my feelings are hurt. That's not necessarily her problem, you know, and I need to be able to better articulate what I'm upset about to see if we can continue on together.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And you find a lot of attorneys. You know they do a big sales pitch in the beginning and then all of a sudden you don't recognize them a week later, once you've paid that retainer and signed their documents. And so I would want to know from the attorney upfront you know, what is your preferred style of communication, because you may be sending 10 different emails to the attorney and they don't even respond to you. You know, if I send you an email, how quickly should I expect a response back? If I have an emergency come up, is there a way I can contact you immediately, even if it's on a Saturday? You know, really finding out where their boundaries are, what their office policies are, if there's somebody else in the office that you can contact in an emergency. You know, I just see such a breakdown in communication with people because they are leaning on their attorney as their savior and again, these are business transactions to them. So getting clear, upfront about expectations and communication styles and all of that is really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I definitely appreciate what you said too about like emergency situations. You know and understanding, is your attorney completely gone, you know, over the weekend? If it is a domestic violence situation or an issue of violence against the children, is there a way that you can get in touch with them? You know is, are there channels that you can go through to kind of like you know if you need to figure out the next best step or not? You know, because even just knowing that you can't, there's other options for you outside of it.
Speaker 3:Right, and to piggyback on what you said, because you know, I think, that so many people, if they do recognize that their attorney is truly not a good fit for them, they stay because they don't want to be seen as problematic in the court.
Speaker 3:That she switched attorney, yeah, again, I would rather go through four attorneys and finally have the right one. You know you get up to six, seven, eight. That's a problem and can be frowned upon, but I personally would not stay with an attorney if the situation felt abusive. If I had been able to practice radical acceptance about the reality of the system not that my attorney isn't telling me what I want to hear, but that I truly understand the way the system is set up and is working and I'm being realistic about my expectations and my attorney is failing me, then I would be looking for a new attorney, and your therapist is a great place to start If you have a therapist, a psychologist who's trauma informed many times. They know of attorneys in the area that work with survivors, and so that can be a great place to look as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and also. So I did do this, but I didn't actually make a change. I did start consulting other attorneys, because most of them or I guess a good amount of them do do free consults. But I was also willing to pay for a consult if I was able to find a better lawyer or a better strategy, and I will say that through doing that it did leave me more confused at the time. I also don't think I would have been less confused with everything I was going through and the where the case was. But being able to consult another attorney, I didn't end up jumping ship on mine at that point, but I did say like, after this I'm done and I need to find somebody who I feel really advocates for me and understands the situation and is showing that in what they're presenting to the court as well.
Speaker 3:Right. That sparked another thought for me sitting in the courtroom. If you're able to sit in the courtroom and watch other attorneys in action, you may find someone who you know. I see it all the time when I'm sitting in court with different clients or survivors as a support person and I'll watch an attorney who just does an excellent job representing a survivor. I'll write down that attorney's name and share it with other people. So really watching them in action is really important and it's a great way to learn the system if someone is just starting out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a great point. That will also give you some education on the family court system by sitting in the courtroom and seeing some of the conversations and the rulings that are made. So one thing that I recommend to people that are just at this beginning stage and they're starting to think about it and they're probably still in the mindset of I don't even know if he's a narcissist or not and we're having the conversation of. It doesn't matter, you know all of that. But I typically tell people you need to start documenting now and they'll say things like oh well, in the state I live in, it's not legal to record somebody without their knowledge. But they'll say, oh well, I recorded this and I recorded that and I'll say, okay, well, like, that's not really what documentation is Right Now. I know you have done so much work on documentation and you have a course on one of mom's battle about documentation. Can you just explain what documentation is and like a few examples of what fall into that category?
Speaker 3:Sure. So one of the best cases of advice I received when my battle first started was from a friend who was a police officer and she said document everything and then document more. And at the time I had no idea what she was talking about. So but I started. I would write down if he was five minutes late to a visit. I created a calendar and I highlighted all of his parenting time. If he was late if you know, the kids came home and my daughter had been in a dirty diaper for you know ever and had a diaper rash I would send myself an email. So it was time stamped I would voice type into an email, send it to myself and then it's just it's captured in that moment and you can also put that on the calendar or in your documentation. So things like that would be a good start. But that is truly why my kids are safe today.
Speaker 3:I credit my documentation and there were times where I went for three months at a time without documenting anything, and that wasn't because he was being great and the kids were thriving. It was because I hit a wall where I needed to find my own oxygen mask, and that's okay, you know, we give ourselves grace. But if it's somebody still in the relationship and you're starting to make plans to get out or to file for divorce, then I would start collecting every financial document, make copies of everything, have it stored off site, because we know when you are going up against a toxic or abusive individual. The money button is the number one button that they all have across the board. That is a blanket statement I feel comfortable using, and so the finances become a nightmare of its own. So, making that as much of a moot point as you can, collecting the information so that you're not having to subpoena and chase things down later, because at that point you want all of your energy to go towards protecting your kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think in your training, since I am trained through your high conflict divorce coach training, it was either you or one of the trainers that said the narcissist is the one that's always caught up on money when the safe parent is only concerned about protecting their children.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, and that is true. And so you know, in my own journey I really tried to keep the finances separate as much as possible. So when I went into court and I was filing something related to custody or my children's safety, I would never merge in a child support motion on that same filing, because I know how judges work, the money, crunching the numbers, all of that is typically pretty black and white and that's where they'll put their focus. And then you get to the end and you have five minutes left to decide the fate of your child. So for me, I made the decision once I really started understanding the way the system works is to keep the money separate as much as possible, and I've had a lot of people who clients I've worked with, where they will offer the high conflict person you know well, let's make our financials set at 50-50. Let's take that out of the equation, let's make it a moot point, because we know so many of these individuals fight for custody just to get to that 50-50 mark for financial reasons.
Speaker 3:And so I had a situation like that in my own case where we set child support as the happy percentage and I really struggled to talk about kids in terms of percentages, but the court does. They're really treated like property. And so I set things where we would be when he did X, y and Z and jumped through the hoops to get to that point. And then what happened? Sure enough, he didn't jump through those hoops because, as I suspected, it was all about money for him. So he had the finances set where he wanted them, but he didn't really want to exercise the time with the kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's a really important point and it's a strategy to bring to your lawyer, because a lot of lawyers they don't understand necessarily who they are dealing with in the CHI conflict individual and going to them and saying like, look, if we can get these finances worked out and have a plan there and then keep this entirely separate, I think it will also, as the person going through it, as the safe parent, it will help calm down your nervous system so that you're not fighting 12 different battles at once and your brain is really focused on the children.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and it is something that your attorney needs to handle very delicately, because you don't want to be seen as bartering finances for your children human life, that's not what it's about. But we know from a strategy perspective what these individuals want and we know what we want, and a lot of times when we push that financial button, they come for our biggest button, which is the kids. And so being really clear with your attorney on what your motivation is and where your walkaway point is or where your sweet spot would be on every single topic, so they know where there is room for negotiations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have recently worked with a few clients that the money to pay for their strategy sessions with me was coming from a family member. But the family member and this was with actually it was three people same similar situation, but they were all stay-at-home moms who didn't really have access to finances. One only had access to the money that she brought in, which was $20,000, and one had access to no money and was told that they have no money. And so if somebody has no resources or getting access to them is going to put them in jeopardy, what do you recommend that they do? As a first step, would you recommend that they seek out some of the local DV shelters for some either legal advocate or to get some basic information?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Some states are wonderful and they have services they have. I've heard of attorneys being provided by domestic violence shelters and advocacy groups. It's very, very rare to get a pro bono attorney in family court, but I have heard situations and I know. When I was first in my local women's shelter, they had an attorney on staff who could guide me, and support groups.
Speaker 3:I think anywhere you can connect with a support group, specifically one focused on your area, like at One Mom's Battle. You mentioned our support groups. We have one for each state in the United States and we have some for different countries. Getting connected to people in your local community or state who know the ins and outs, who can save you a lot of work trying to figure it out through trial and error, to get their feedback, hear their experiences and know who to stay away from, which professionals to connect with. Going to you know, like I had touched on before sitting in the courtroom, a lot of courts have access on Zoom. You can go to their website, see if there's any online portals to watch court cases, but that's a really good way to start educating yourself on the system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's such an important point and it's a point that we keep coming back to is that educating on the system is so important.
Speaker 2:And, tina, you have touched on a few of the almost like I don't know pillars of understanding for the family court system, such as, like that, parental rights, trump, child safety a lot of the time, and I think one of the biggest things for me was knowing that I was providing everything for my daughter whether it was finances, it was taking her to school, it was being her 100% parent.
Speaker 2:I left my ex-husband when she was one, so it was like very little and she's six now and knowing that I could have a camera following me every day showing what I do for this kid and the court is still going to see it for how they see it. That was really hard for me and that is like in terms of radical acceptance. I think that's something that I work with clients on a lot Like as much as you do for the children. You still need to understand that the court is working off of certain parameters. And also this was fascinating for me to learn and I believe I learned in your training a lot of time the judge sitting at a family court could have been appointed. That has no knowledge of the family court system, right, which is fascinating.
Speaker 3:It's terrifying it truly is that we have judicial officers all over the country that have little to no training. My 16-year-old daughter could teach a class on domestic violence and educate people more than our judges. You know it's. Yet these people are making decisions that affect the lives of our children, sometimes literally, and the reality of our family court system is that on the other side of the spectrum they have a lot of parents who are deadbeats and don't show up and don't fight for their kids, and so anyone who shows up in court and says they want access to their child, they are given five gold stars. You know, basically the qualifications are you need to have a pulse and not have a heroin needle.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Sending out to arms, yeah, yeah, and they're given a standing ovation. And a lot of times our attempts to protect the kids, because we know this person. Their motives in fighting for the children are simply to hurt us. You know we end up coming across as problematic because we've had these light bulb moments. We see through this person and I try to remind people. You know.
Speaker 3:I know in my situation it probably took me a solid six years before I truly saw behind the mask and really understood what I was up against. So it would be unfair for me to expect my judge to take my word at face value and figure this person out in five court dates. And then it can be even more problematic if you're in a court system where the judges are on rotation or they change a lot, because the quick route to protecting your child is when the judge starts to pick up on the issues and starts to see the patterns. Or you know, I do see success stories with the rotating judges. But you have to hope they leave really good notes for the next judge if they do see through this person. But you know the bar is set incredibly low for you know, for the kudos they give to these people for being parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I like what you said, like even if, as long as they are standing there and saying they want time of their child, they are going to be taken seriously until, basically, there's a reason not to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and your attempt to challenge that is just speculation. You know you trying to convince the court that this is about hurting me, this is about the money. You can't prove that. You know the courts their hands are tied by what are the actual facts that can be proven and so that's. You know another area where learning your system is really important.
Speaker 2:That reminds me of an important point, and I I know that this is a legal strategy answer, so I'll just preface. It is that this is something that people would talk to their lawyers about if they had one, or a legal advocate or free legal advice of the local court system. But when the narcissist or the abusive person is coming in and they are either claiming lies, saying things like you are mentally unwell or you are unsafe, or like you do nothing or you are taking me away from my kid or you don't do these things. Tina, I know you've seen it all and I feel like in my time I've seen so much in terms of just like straight lies, of like this person didn't consult me before signing up for preschool, whereas like there's the email where you sign, where you consulted about signing up for preschool, and so if somebody is consistently presenting lies to the court, or lies even to your attorney, or if there are any other strategies that you recommend other than really amping up and keeping documentation.
Speaker 3:Right. So I think responding and shutting it down in a way that I call it yellow rock communication, in a way where you present as the person you truly are, so you're showing up, you are authentic, you are not combative, you're not seen as part of the conflict, and so if somebody accused me of you didn't consult with me when you signed her up for preschool last month, I would send over a copy of the preschool form with his signature on it or her signature, and say refresh your memory, I've attached the signup form we both signed. Let me know if you have any questions, or you don't even have to say that, because that opens the door for more communication or more attacks, or sometimes it's if it's something truly outlandish, like every day this week you've put our daughter in mismatched socks and blah, blah, blah. I would say your attempt to portray me in a negative light has been noted. This is not conducive to a healthy co-parenting relationship. Let's stay focused on items that are truly about the kids. They truly matter, that type of thing.
Speaker 2:And I think a lot of times when you send those messages and when you lean into a strategy like yellow rock communication, what you're really doing is you need to set yourself up in a place where you are sending the response that you're not committed to responding back, because it is gonna be an outlandish response most of the time that you might get back to something like that, and you need to be committed to sticking with the strategy, because what I noticed in doing it was how much that helped me just feel like I have a strategy, this is my response and then I get to close the email and not ruminate anymore.
Speaker 3:Right and you get to the point over time, and not in every situation when there's extreme abuse and that type of thing, but in most of these situations we can predict what their response is going to be or what the attacks are going to be, and sometimes it's almost trying to find humor in it, like that is exactly what I expected him to say, or that this attack did not catch me off guard, because it is really radical acceptance on who they are and that they're not capable of doing the right things, they're not capable of communicating in a healthy way, and so and that's the court can get so frustrated and the water gets so muddy when there is so much chaos in the communication and you aren't being very strategic in your responses and in your communication, or that gray rock communication which a lot of people use really backfires on people because the whole concept is to be as boring as a gray rock.
Speaker 3:Well, if the court doesn't know either of you, you're going to come across as bitter and jaded and that you don't like this person and you want the court to see who you authentically are and to show that these are the attacks I get. This is how I respond in a friendly, polite, courteous way I would say, almost like you're communicating with a business colleague to shut down the chaos of the communication so that the judge can focus on the real issues and not become annoyed with both of you.
Speaker 2:Right, because once the court labels somebody or case high conflict, it's both of you. Even if you are doing everything that you can to limit the conflict or even just eliminate it completely, you're both labeled high conflict, whether or not one person is the one causing it.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and that's what we work very hard to educate the courts on the fact that it only takes one person to create a high conflict situation and a lot of survivors get caught up and get angry about us using the words high conflict. But we are not going to get away from that. The court labels that is common terminology thrown around the courtroom every single day. The effort is better spent educating the courts that it does only take one person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, to that end, something that I think is really important just in if you are beginning to divorce an abusive person or I mean, obviously, get divorced at all, but if you're listening to this, I imagine there's a reason that you're here is that having your support system outside of your lawyer and outside of family and friends is really important.
Speaker 2:So having a therapist or a coach that understands what you are going through and probably specializes in trauma and narcissistic abuse and, Tina, I know on your website you have some friends of one mom's battle that are recommended resources in terms of therapists and also if leaning into a coach. I work pretty consistently with people but I also know from going through this training is that sometimes people just work one off and I've done that too just a one off call to sort of help with strategy, and then that might be it, and some people may continue on and on. So it doesn't have to be a big thing, but just having a place to go with questions and being able to get support outside of just this one place is really the lifeline in it being able to wither through what comes next.
Speaker 3:Right, and when I created the High Conflict Divorce Coach Certification Program, I saw a missing piece and attorney. There are some great attorneys or a great therapist, but the therapists don't have the knowledge of the strategy or the understanding of the court system. The attorneys do not have the capacity to provide emotional support or the true strategy pieces that people need. And so having a coach, a lot of people say, but how can I afford one if I'm already paying my attorney? I can almost guarantee you your attorney costs are going to go down tremendously by working with a coach or a strategy partner from our program, because they can help you with so many of the things and attorneys. Once the client starts working with a coach, the attorneys want to know who is this person. Now the client is showing up to the attorney's office with a strategy mindset, with their documentation in order, really articulating the issues and delivering it in a fashion that the attorney can actually do something with, and so I can't emphasize the importance enough of working with a coach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I often think about who's in my little my tribe, which my daughter's teacher, my coach, my therapist, the gym owner or my neighbor, and it's like I think that for me, having my coach on my team, on my side, knowing that this person gets it, nobody gets into this work if they don't get it. No one's like you know what I want to understand Divorcing a narcissist. We've gone through it on some level and we get it. We don't think you're crazy. We understand why you're panicking, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always felt that when I made the decision to go through your training it really was. I wanted to be able to feel like I could help former versions of myself that didn't understand what she was going through because she couldn't. She had no idea. I got married at 28. So I was like I had no idea what I was going through at 31. And I thought the court system was like a place of justice and they're going to see this. I had no idea and so I know, from the training at least, that I went through and also following your work, tina, for way longer than years at this point. Is that the people that do this work are also. They're so passionate about it not only about protecting your children, but really hoping you feel safe and start a new life. It's an invaluable resource in my perspective.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. So many of us become the person we needed when we were in the darkness, somebody who can hold the light and say this is the way and it's life changing. It really can be yeah.
Speaker 2:I know that you have created some resources on OneMomsBattlecom about some of the intricacies of divorcing a narcissist in terms of documentation and mediation. Are those still available on your website?
Speaker 3:Yes, I have courses on strategic communication, mediation, documentation. I go through my entire system and show people how to do that safeguarding your case from claims of I'm using air quotes alienation, the pseudoscience of alienation which has taken over the family court system. But it is a terrifying thing that's happening in our courts right now where, for some reason well I know the reasons, because it's a money making scheme but the accusations of alienation seem to trump allegations or even substantiated findings of abuse. And so the safeguarding your case from those claims is really important, especially for people who are just starting out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Latina. Thank you so much for joining me today and approaching this complex topic. I couldn't think of anybody better to do this episode with, and I really appreciate you sharing all of your knowledge and also just diving into it with me.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you for the work you're doing out there. I enjoy watching your videos and you're doing a fantastic job, so thank you for having me today.
Speaker 2:If people want to follow you and or follow some of the advocacy that's happening, how can they do that?
Speaker 3:Our website is onemumpspedalcom. But if you are looking to get involved with advocacy efforts, legislative change, which we really need you to, because we can all sit around and keep talking about how broken the system is or how it was created this way, but until everyone links arms and gets involved and we've had a super highway paved across the country from the federal angle of legislation Caden's law which will protect children, now it's a matter of bringing it into each state and passing Caden's law. So go to nationalsafeparentsorg to get involved in efforts in your state.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much again, Tina. Thank you MUSIC.