Ever wonder what a Narcissist is thinking? Today, we're pulling back the curtain in an enlightening conversation with Ben Taylor, a Self-Aware Narcissist. Ben guides us through narcissistic relationships, shedding light on complex dynamics like hoovering, discarding, and the head-spinning cycle of shame and blame. We also navigate through emotionally abusive behavior and discuss the crucial steps needed to break free and find a clear understanding of reality.
You can learn more about Ben here: https://www.rawmotivations.com/
Website: Emotional Abuse Coach
Instagram: @emotionalabusecoach
Email: jessica@jessicaknightcoaching.com
{Course} Identify Signs of Abuse and Begin to Heal
{Free Resource} Canned Responses for Engaging with an Abusive Partner
Ever wonder what a Narcissist is thinking? Today, we're pulling back the curtain in an enlightening conversation with Ben Taylor, a Self-Aware Narcissist. Ben guides us through narcissistic relationships, shedding light on complex dynamics like hoovering, discarding, and the head-spinning cycle of shame and blame. We also navigate through emotionally abusive behavior and discuss the crucial steps needed to break free and find a clear understanding of reality.
You can learn more about Ben here: https://www.rawmotivations.com/
Website: Emotional Abuse Coach
Instagram: @emotionalabusecoach
Email: jessica@jessicaknightcoaching.com
{Course} Identify Signs of Abuse and Begin to Heal
{Free Resource} Canned Responses for Engaging with an Abusive Partner
Welcome to the Relationship Recovery Podcast hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes in narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others, and heal the relationship with yourself so you can learn to love in a healthy way.
Speaker 2:Hello, on today's podcast we have Ben Taylor. Ben Taylor is a self-aware narcissist and he is back to talk about how would you break up with a narcissist. We go through a lot of various topics, such as hoovering, discarding, shame, blame and control all things that are very present in a narcissistic relationship. We also talk about some beginning steps of how to leave and how to get right with reality so that you can feel ready and prepared to leave the relationship. If you are wondering how can you begin to understand and break through emotionally abusive behavior which, by the way, if you are with a narcissist, you are dealing with emotional abuse what you can do is go on my website, emotionalabusecoachcom, and click on the Emotional Abuse Breakthrough Program. This program is designed to help you begin to break through the patterns of emotional abuse, to see where you are in the cycle of abuse and begin to break free. This is just one resource of the many resources out there. In addition, there's an e-book online on my website called how to Break Up with a Narcissist, and it is a deep dive into how you can begin to break free from the cycle of narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 2:If you are listening to this and you are really driving with Ben and you feel like he is the person to help you on your journey. His website and all his resources are in the show notes under raw motivations. Head there, follow him on TikTok, on Instagram, and begin to piece together for yourself what you are going through, because the more clarity you have, the easier quote unquote, don't want to use easier the more clarity you have, the more aligned you're going to feel with the healing journey that you are going to be on. Here's Ben, hi Ben, thank you so much for joining me again. Yeah, no, absolutely it's good to be here. Can you tell us quickly who you are, what you do and a little bit of an intro to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so my name is Ben Taylor. I'm a self-worn narcissist online trying to help bring awareness to narcissistic abuse and also to break people out of trauma bonds and being able to get away from toxic relationships, especially mentally and emotionally, to be able to have true freedom from those toxic relationships.
Speaker 2:Today I wanted to dive into how to break up with a narcissist, which I know is such a very broad topic, but I was hoping that we could break it down a little bit, as we tend to do, and try and help people understand what are some of the elements that are going on when this is happening. But before we dive a little deeper, I was hoping that you could explain just a bit what a self-aware narcissist is and what makes you different. Really, what I'm getting at here is that, as you know and in the work that you do too, a lot of narcissists one are undiagnosed, but two they don't change, they're not self-aware. They may claim to be self-aware, but they are not. I don't want someone to go into this thinking like oh well, he seems self-aware, my person is definitely going to change.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, that makes sense. I think a big piece is understanding that self-awareness doesn't mean change and also that people really aren't looking for their narcissist to change. What they're actually looking for or wanting is transformation. The hard part there is the majority of times you will have someone who will modify, who will change, who will manipulate, who will twist different things to show an aspect of change, but it's not really transforming from the inside out, typically, it's just modifying from the outside in.
Speaker 3:For me, the aspect of being self-aware is understanding hey, this is who I am, this is what I've done, this is me owning it 100% and working every single day to be able to counteract the thought process, the ideas that I have to be able to get back to the truth and back to the reality of the facts of the situation, so that I can ultimately be free of those toxic tendencies and be free of the aspect that once stab me, go back to living a lie, living sedation, living a life that is not really joy-filled or that is not actually purpose-driven.
Speaker 3:Being self-aware is just cracking the door open of the very beginning of the journey, of working on myself and being able to eradicate the lies that I believed and that I've lived and that I've told and being able to work through a piece of honesty in all parts of my life, to being able to say, hey, I'm going to actually show up different than how I've shown up before, not because I'm trying to win someone back, not because I'm trying to do this for my wife or my family, but because I know who I am. Without living this way and without being honest. That's where a big driver comes in, of actually having this transformation happen from the inside out, because it's something I want, versus just modifying or conforming to what other people say or think that I should be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love how you said that it's change versus a transformation. A transformation is so much deeper and I really appreciate you outlining that because I definitely think that's something people will be able to look at and say okay, wait, yes, this person would make quote unquote change, but are they really somebody who can, will and would want to transform?
Speaker 3:No, 100%. I think a lot of times people are looking and I mean, that's one of the most popular questions out there is like, can a narcissist change? Right and in all reality? Like the answer is yeah, like they can change and they change a lot. They morph for each person, they change for each person out there. New mask, new image, like all this kind of stuff changes.
Speaker 3:And it's kind of like if you picture like a triangle, like you can draw out a triangle in multiple shapes, you know, in multiple aspects, one side being longer, shorter, like all different types, you can turn it, you can twist it, all this kind of stuff, For the end of the day it's still a triangle. And so, like that's the thing is, a lot of times people are looking at a change for a narcissist and it's still a triangle, Like it's still the same thing. And there hasn't been this actual transformation of like what if that triangle became a circle? Like it would have to actually change its entire structure to actually show up differently. And so that's for me, like what I work on on a daily basis with like weekly therapy, with daily meditation, with doing process called stacking, which is a little bit like cognitive behavioral therapy and like things like that, to be able to work on changing my mindset, my thought process, my values, my ideas, the stories I tell myself from the inside out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, which is so. It's so difficult, so necessary but so difficult, and I know how hard that is, just from being a human being as well. In the topic today of being getting to discuss why it is so hard to break up with a narcissist and I know you work one-on-one with people but when I typically have one-on-one people come to me, what I notice is typically happening is that the narcissist will really start to hoover. So we might go and get some clarity, Like I might be working with the clients who really they start to really see what they're dealing with and then they start to try and break away.
Speaker 2:Everybody's situation is different, so it may look different depending on if they live together, if they don't, if they're in school together, if they work together, whatever that might be, and oftentimes they're trauma bonded. But on top of that, the narcissist is being extremely confusing. They might be saying things like I don't want to be with you or I never want to be with you, and then they might come back and say that I missed them and that they didn't mean to say any of those things. It just it creates such a dizzying process. Do you see typical behavior in your work?
Speaker 3:Yeah, obviously fairly typical as far as, like, there's a lot of people that come into with a lot of fog, with a lot of confusion, with a lot of cognitive dissonance. So, like, well, he says this, but he's demonstrating this, he's saying he doesn't want me, that he's going back and forth, like the intermittent reinforcement, like the highs and lows, the ups and downs. So I would say that it is pretty common when we're talking about narcissistic abuse and especially at the end of the relationship, how things will change or morph back and forth.
Speaker 2:In your perspective, what keeps the narcissist in this cycle with someone who doesn't want to be with them anymore? Even if they have said something like we will tell people all the time not to call someone a narcissist, it usually doesn't go well, but I you know, even if they've identified the traits, they know it within themselves. What do you notice that like keeps the narcissist in the dance with, say, the victim or the healthy person?
Speaker 3:Two biggest things I would say would be image and control.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:So image of how is this going to look if this relationship falls apart, whether that's to, how is this going to look to family, to friends, to parents, to coworkers, to religious organizations, to society? How is this going to look? And can I keep the facade that this is a great relationship? And then the other piece would be on the aspect of control of like, if I get out of this relationship, I lose this supply, I lose this control, I lose this person. That might seem like it's the most awful thing, but I'm still in control of it. And there's the piece that sometimes people get confused on is the narcissist will look at you and be like I hate you. This is the worst relationship. Like you're suffocating me, You're doing all these things like blame you right.
Speaker 3:And at the end of the day, like the logic is well, if it's a person, it's a person, it is well, if I'm doing that to you, then why don't you leave? But the thing you have to understand is, even though the narcissist is playing that role of like I'm a victim, you're being awful to me, they're still the ones causing and creating a reaction from you, which in the narcissist mind still means that they're in control. And so if you actually got out of the relationship, the narcissist would no longer have that control, that leverage over you, which would feel bad, because then there's not that person to be able to, to be able to manipulate, control, and then that says bad things about themselves because they lost that advantage over another person.
Speaker 2:And when the narcissist continues to try and get back when so say they have lost that control or the person they're with is starting to really separate and move away. Are they seeking? Is there a difference between control and supply, or does control feed supply?
Speaker 3:I would take more long lines of control feed supply. So like, if I can troll you, then you're my supply, if that makes sense. So like, if the person starts to pull away, it's like, oh, like there, and narcissist can sense this majority of time, like he can sense that this person's pulling away or they're starting to disengage. So I need to up the ante or I need to push a little bit harder, I need to love bomb, I need to step back in for a moment. So like there's this piece of like, oh, I'm losing control. And so you see this in the control aspect of like, okay, you just set a boundary, you just set a boundary. You just bucked up against my control, you just like limited my access to you, you just did something that doesn't let me do what I want entitlement piece, right. So like in that aspect, it's like the supply is the control in that aspect, because it's like well, I used to be able to control you, now I don't control you, therefore you're bad supply. And that's often until we see them start to have other side pieces or interact with other people.
Speaker 3:But there's still this piece of I can control your reaction. And so if the narcissist can still get a reaction while still in the relationship or out of the relationship, that still can feel like a supply piece. Because then think, think of I guess the easiest way to say it is like think of supply as being a reaction and so, like, you can have a positive reaction, you can have a negative reaction, doesn't matter. For a narcissist it's typically supply, because I caused you to do X, y and Z. I made you do this. This happened because I'm so good and you're so awful. So, whatever the story is, they'll try to manipulate the situation to feed, like their own ego, their own self, but ultimately that control piece goes back to did I actually get someone to react or fall subservient to what I wanted them to do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've been reading and doing this work for years at this point, but I don't think I've ever heard somebody explain it in that way, and I was just sitting down here taking some notes as you were talking and it's like it's actually like quite fascinating that it really like everything can come back to like do they feel like they have the upper hand or not? You know, are they in this place of control, even if it's false control, or not?
Speaker 2:And if I reflect back on some of my past relationships, that's absolutely what was happening, like even when I was like, even from, like you know, if I was in a very authentic space and I was like you know, look, I get it. I wish you the best. I don't want to. I'm not interested in talking Like I really do hope that you figure out, you know, and find someone, blah, blah, blah. It still was like the blame, like the blame would just like come powering in, like it was so unwanted and so not needed in this moment, like years could have passed, but the name still like it was like they could not let it go. And I wonder in a situation like that, is that because you're not feeding into the supply that they're wanting and maybe expecting they're going to get in some way?
Speaker 3:I think in that specific situation I would say that would tap a little bit more into rejection, which would buck up against control, which would buck up against respect, which would ultimately buck up against the piece that would unlock the shame aspect of like you should want me or like I'm so amazing, so you should care about me. You should want this back and you don't. So that's like even more frustrating. So I'm going to get back into your life. So you do. You see this a lot of times, where narcissists will fight tooth and nail to get back into your life so he can discard you. You know, at that point, like it's already moved to a place of like well, I'm just going to be vindictive to you, I'm just going to push back. You know, in that type of a situation, because oftentimes you'll see like, oftentimes you'll see, so I guess let me phrase it a different way so like control, for instance, control is not always just to control supply.
Speaker 3:Supply is a piece that comes out of control when you think of it in the control kind of wheelhouse. Like the narcissist is trying to control other people, other scenarios, everything, typically to be able to control image. And the reason why they're trying to control image is to protect themselves from shame. So, like I have to do everything I can to run away from shame, even if that means I have to control another person, that's okay, because then I'm protecting myself. That's the lie, you know. That's like the story that gets told to the narcissist of, like well, if I do this, then it will justify this. If I do this, it'll protect me from this, because I can't feel shame. I don't want to feel shame. If I feel shame, then that's incongruent with, like, the mass that I put up. So there's a lot of different pieces that control touches, but a lot of control goes back to keeping a certain image so that it doesn't actually reveal the shame that's underneath.
Speaker 2:Why is a narcissist so afraid of shame? Are they aware that they are so afraid of shame?
Speaker 3:I wasn't. I had no clue, learned about shame before I even knew about narcissism, but like that was still like on my journey kind of a thing, and until I actually had like a name for it, I had no clue, had no clue what it was or anything like that. And when I was able to identify it I was like, oh okay, like that's what I struggle with, didn't change anything because I was like very early on, but like it helped to identify it of like, okay, this is what it is, this is what shame feels like and what shame is Like. I would say, for a narcissist, shame is like death, and so getting to that piece of shame typically comes through the avenue of honesty, truthfulness and vulnerability. And so for a narcissist, that's why they're so against any type of truth, because it unlocks vulnerable feelings and unlocks shame that's underneath, and it's like I got to do anything I can to run away from this, because it feels like death is the best way to be able to put it.
Speaker 2:I think that's a really important point, and I work with a lot of people that are getting divorced or in the divorce process, and so I want to ask a question, even though it's like sort of out of order with where we're going today, because I think it fits in right here and I think it's important. I'm really just curious about what your perspective is here. A lot of people that I work with are either in a high conflict divorce, which is just a divorce with a narcissist, and the narcissist will put in lies. They actually will fabricate lies. I've even seen people make up text messages. I read documents around the kids where they're completely lying about how the one parent spends time with the child and they also don't even know a lot of the time that they are during the parenting time. When they go to such great lengths to do things like that, is that their way of trying to protect themselves against feeling shame?
Speaker 3:Yes. So that would be to protect against shame and to try to control the narrative, to protect against shame when you boil it down, all the aspect is like, how do I show up in a certain way that makes me look good and feel good and not have to feel the bad stuff aka shame? And so that's why you're always going to have narcissists run away from guilt. Hey, I did something bad because it unlocks shame. Hey, I am bad and that's in congruent with the mask, with the version of themselves that they are pretending to be or trying to show to society.
Speaker 2:Do they really believe the story that they're telling themselves, say? We follow the same example. Somebody's getting divorced and the narcissist is arguing that the other parent never spends time with the kids. The kids are always in the care of someone else or a babysitter. When it's really not true at all, they're defending it. There are lawyers involved in it. They're defending it in front of the court. Do they really believe the lies that they're telling themselves? Or are they so committed to that lie because they cannot imagine the real story or the real truth coming out?
Speaker 3:Be a little bit of both, trying to make sure I wrap my head around the question completely. So I guess the easiest way to be able to answer it would be yes, they believe the lies because they have to, because the alternative would be exposing the reality, which would be shame, which would be death. So in that aspect it's like I'm going to fabricate this. I know it's a lie, but I don't care, because it's going to keep me from feeling shame, even if I keep telling myself this, enough, I will believe it. Then it's no longer. I mean, that's why a narcissist a lot of them are so believable in their lies because they're already believing it, because they've had to change their reality, they've had to fabricate stories in their own mind, they've had to lack of better words, they've had to gaslight themselves into believing an alternate version of reality that says, hey, you can exist in this reality without having to feel shame. So for me, a piece of it.
Speaker 3:So consider, one of the lies that I used to believe was I am a good person. So I had to tell myself that I didn't even realize. I told myself that this was buried, and it wasn't until I went through a 42-day evolution that I was able to even find this lie, but I thought I'm a good person, while at the same time, I held that thought along with the idea of okay, I'm also cheating on my wife, I'm also lying, I'm also giving other people advice, while I'm being a hypocrite and doing the exact opposite, like a whole litany of different things. But I had to hold on to that one lie and I had to believe it so that I could keep operating with the mask that said and stated I am a good person, even though I was doing things that were abusive. So I had to believe it in order not to feel shame.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's almost like it became like one of those inner pillars of how you see yourself and who you are. Even if it didn't have supporting evidence, it was just like. This is who I am.
Speaker 3:That's the piece that supports the mask. Yeah, so, like how you said that it's a supporting pillar of the mask, of the image that I create.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think about it in terms of how I would think about the values that are important to me, or my honesty, my being a good mom doing the right thing which can be that's very big topic but showing up with integrity. And if I believe that and if I say that's who I am and I tell myself that over and over and I don't question it and I don't have practices to lean back to, then I just sort of like have a story of I'm this person. That's really like. It's pretty fragile because it's not based on anything, but it's also pretty firm because it's the story I've been telling myself my whole life. Right, so it can be really tough to then break away, which, in an argument with a narcissist or in a breakup conversation with a narcissist, is maddening. Right, Because they're probably like this is who I am and you're crazy when you're like, oh my God, no, you're not Absolutely Right, that's great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, that's a really good way to put it and like the that's the whole piece is I get has to be built on that pillar in that aspect of like well, this is who I am, even if it's not true, that's what they're gonna hold on to sit on to feel bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I want to take a little bit of a right turn over to how to begin to break up with a narcissist when all of this is going on, you know. And so when all of this is going on and we're in a relationship with somebody that we're constantly gaslit, no conversation actually goes anywhere. They keep making promises that there is no transformation and there's not going to be, and say they have started to follow Someone like you or me on Instagram and they start to put together some of the pieces of like okay, wait, this pattern is what's happening in my relationship. I can't do this anymore. I and, like you, know, maybe they get help or they get therapy and they decide they want to leave. The narcissist will make it almost near impossible to leave the majority of the time, even if they also say they don't want the relationship. What are some of the beginning steps that you typically recommend to people if they are Trying to break up with somebody who won't let them break up?
Speaker 3:Can you define more of like? Won't let them break up.
Speaker 2:I guess what I mean more. I'm glad you asked that question because as it came out of my mouth, I was like I need to be clear about that. I'll just give an example and we'll just use that example. So, okay, I dated somebody a few years ago who he kept saying like he's somebody who had like rage, anger, and it was the very. He had a lot of emotionally abusive qualities, but he also had a lot of narcissistic qualities, and I didn't matter if he was a narcissist, if he was this or is that he definitely.
Speaker 2:At the end of this, I kept trying to end the relationship and I kept trying to do it in a way that felt like Look, we're on different pages, it's okay, I don't want to be with you anymore. And then he would say you too, I don't want to be with you, blah, blah, blah. And then it wouldn't even be three to four days before I got an email or a text and then when I blocked him, it would be a letter, and then when I like would throw those out, it would be a gift, and then it would be his mom calling and then it would be a conversation and then it would be a promise to change, then it would be therapy, and it was, and like I was very aware of what was going on, so I didn't fall for a lot of it. But I have a lot of clients that start to believe that these things are true, and I think, because we all want these things to be true, right, it's really great if someone's like holy shit, I treated you so poorly and I'm gonna do all these things to change Myself so I can be a better partner if you choose, to one day have me back. That's not typically what happens.
Speaker 2:Usually there's a lot of blame and there's a little bit of accountability, but it's not really based on true accountability, it's not a true apology, and so when I say it doesn't let them break up, I think that what I'm really referring to is like one, how hard it is to actually like go to block someone and if we're trauma bonded, how hard it is to even begin to tell ourselves that it's a trauma bond and it's not love, because it feels like love. So you might be feeling I'm so in love with them, I can't leave them, and they keep coming back. We must be destined to be together. You're not, and when we step that, when we do a lot of personal work. When we step outside, we're able to then see okay, this person is not the right person for me. This is what a trauma bond is. This is what I feel like. But it takes us a while to get there.
Speaker 2:And so when somebody is in the relationship and say the narcissist continues to hoover or they keep trying to get you back, to Discard you, I would say a lot of people don't know that that's happening. When it's happening, you and I, I think, see it clearly. You know people that have been listening to either of us for a while Probably can start to see these patterns clearly. But when you're in it, I didn't see it for what that was. And so what would you suggest to somebody if the narcissist, say, was continuing to find ways to like reach out to you, to hoover, to even show up to where you are, and Kept saying they didn't want to break up but they weren't going to change?
Speaker 3:So the narcissist is saying they don't want to break up, but at the same time they're either seeing, or the narcissist is like I don't have anything, I need to change.
Speaker 2:The narcissist is basically like I'm sorry, I want to be with you, I won't do it again, but it's not based on anything and like we could just assume that somebody's been in the pattern for a while, but every time that there's an ending they show back up. I had even had a client this week or last week, today's Monday, last week we said her narcissistic ex. She cut off all communication and then he started showing up at the supermarket and it almost felt like he was waiting for her To like, have a conversation or to give a false apology or it's a love bomb. But it was based on nothing and so she started to feel like I can't ever really break up with this person. They're not going.
Speaker 3:I think that's the reason why I asked that question initially, because, like, I think the words we give it is super powerful, because if we say that, then it's going to be the reality. And so, like, like, making sure that, like all the clients know, like, hey, that is their choice and that's their empowerment to actually be able to do it and no one can actually force you not to break up with them. And so, like, just making sure that, like clients even know, and that people they're listening know, like, hey, no one can actually force you to stay in the relationship or to be in the relationship. But when we think that oftentimes that's the first start of giving our power away to someone else and, as a result, it makes it very hard to be free from that person Because we've already, like proclaimed that or declare that of, like I can't do this If you can't, if you say you can't, then you can't, because that's just the reality of what the words actually do, the progression That'll actually do.
Speaker 3:I think one thing that's kind of clear, like one thing that needs to be addressed and this might be a slight side note, but I think it might help with this situation it is understanding that at the end of the relationship, the narcissist will change anything and everything about themselves Just to be able to keep you or get you back. And this is where a lot of people get confused because they see, at the end of the relationship, they see him change and they're like, oh my gosh, she's changing. Now he actually cares, he actually loves. And what you have to do is you have to understand that, the majority of the times, all of the change that happens at the end of the relationship is typically Changes that you asked for throughout the relationship that all of a sudden randomly happen at the very end. When you say that you're done, when you go no contact, when you say I'm over, like when you actually lay down the line of like I'm done, then you will start to see random changes that have not been prompted by you in the moment, but have been prompted in the past. This is the key that people need to understand is, when you see these changes happen without prompting, it's not because the narcissist got to a place and have this giant epiphany.
Speaker 3:What's happening is the narcissist is realizing that all the previous ways to manipulate you are no longer working and they have to be able to adjust their manipulation strategy. So at this point, if he can't manipulate you through all the different love bombing and Hoover attempts that have happened in the past, then there has to be these promises of change or has to be signing up for therapy. There has to be all this stuff that shows up that you haven't even asked for recently, but has been asked for in the past. What it does is it actually helps. You know one thing, or two things really. One is knowing that he actually knew about this the entire time and two, being like, if he knew about this the entire time, he purposely withheld this to be able to manipulate you, which is why he's changing it now. So, like.
Speaker 3:I don't know if this helps as far as like diving into this piece of it, but I did wanna kinda like just acknowledge that a lot of times people think that the narcissist is changing at the end of the relationship because they finally figured it out, or they have this epiphany of like oh my gosh, I've been awful, let me fix it when in reality, there are a lot of times they're changing and modifying stuff that you asked months ago and they didn't do. And then they'll all of a sudden randomly like let's use a silly example like let's say, you say, hey, every Monday, I want, you know, a bouquet of flowers, and they never do it and they're like yeah, I forgot, didn't have time, didn't have money, all this kind of stuff. So you always feel devalued because you didn't get this bouquet of flowers. That you're just like hey, it's simple, I just want a bouquet of flowers every single Monday.
Speaker 3:Soon, as you say like I don't think this is working out, like I'm done the next Monday of a bouquet of flowers, and so that's the piece I want people to understand is, when that happens, it's not like oh, I figured it out, this is what's gonna save our relationship, it's no, this is what I know she wants. Let me give it to her because it'll actually prolong the relationship if she finally sees me trying in one area that I know she wanted in the past. I just didn't want to give because I didn't need to, Because she wasn't in the place where she was actually gonna leave.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Sorry, that might have been like a side note, but hopefully that helps bring value to it as well.
Speaker 2:No, it definitely does it. Just, I guess I'm like you know I'm thinking about that situation and you're absolutely right Like a lot of the things that narcissists will come through with or promise at the end or like claim to do. That's always things that you've been asking for, that you've been wanting throughout the relationship, and then it's like they come to you with it as if it's their idea.
Speaker 2:You know, and it's like not something at all that you've been asking for for months, but this brand new idea that they have, that they want to bring forward, and it's infuriating and it's also like it can be such a mind game to those going through it, because it's like you wanted water for so long and now they're like and you're dehydrated and then they hand you a cup of water Like it was so easy the whole time. And when we're in that space or when we're trauma bonded, I don't think we think about it that deeply of like okay, well, it's almost like. Oh well, maybe they care. You know, it's sort of like reinforces this feeling that's not actually true or based on anything for the narcissist when no absolutely so.
Speaker 2:I wrote down this question on my questions and I actually like, as I just reread it, it says what is one way you can actually break away from a narcissist and like, as I was about to read it, I was like what I'm really asking there is like how to begin to break your trauma bond, which is a much bigger question. But I want to reword it and phrase it so that people have something a little bit more actionable to think about. What is one suggestion that you have of how somebody can begin to create some space from the narcissist so they might be able to get some clarity and begin to see what's happening and not fall into some of the same patterns?
Speaker 3:I think, like creating space, sometimes they can come down to like very, very small practical steps, even if it'd be reducing communication to different venues or different aspects. But it could even be like putting your phone on do not disturb, or like muting that one person's text message, just to be able to have a slight break where you're not as anxious about those text messages or those emails that are coming in, and then you check them like on the hour or you check them like on a certain day or whatever it might be, to try to be able to just establish a little bit of a gap. Sometimes it's only like five minutes, but is trying to be able to establish a little bit of a gap about clarity. Whenever we're talking about clarity and even the initial stages of breaking a trauma bond, a lot of that comes back to getting really, really clear about the facts, like what are the facts of the situation, what is the actual reality and this is hard for a lot of people.
Speaker 3:This is what I train in a lot, because a lot of people want to combine facts and emotions together and we actually try to take those and separate them, because if you're able to separate them, you're able to make clear decisions faster. If you're able to be like okay, here's the facts, all the facts of the situation, and then this is how I feel about them, then we can make decisions. But if we kind of combine the two together, it makes it really hard, because then the person's confused of like, well, I have this feeling, but it's not actually factual, Like I feel he cares about me, but it's not actually shown by evidence or demonstrated or factual, because he's not actually shown up in a way that's actually showing care. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and it makes sense on the flip side of, I often say that, like most narcissists act as if their feelings are facts. So from like the opposite point of view, it's almost like, I think, if we're beginning to separate that work for ourselves of like what is a fact, where do we land with some of this? And then being able to kind of just like, look over at the narcissist and say, like they almost act as if every feeling is a fact, and then they, it's like how they live their life, it's like because they felt it, it must be true. And how ridiculous that is. When we are living it, when we're doing this work, especially doing this work on ourselves, to be able to take that step back and say, okay, I need to start to question the way that I see things and to get clear on that so that I'm regardless if I stay or if I lead this relationship, I'm going, I'm in it and I'm with a clear head and I know what I'm doing.
Speaker 3:No, 100%. That's why, like working with different clients or in different groups that I have or communities or tribes that we run, like my whole goal is not to get them to just go no contact because that's not going to be good enough. Like if I tell them, hey, just go no contact, and we work through, or they're even at a place, just tell me what to do, and I'm like, go no contact, like they'll go right back because it has to be able to change, like the thought process. We have to actually change, like the story that's running through their head, otherwise there'll still be this opportunity for them to accept toxicity back into their life. So until we actually break down the facts of the situation so they can see clearly and see the truth of the situation, no freedom is really possible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what would you say is the hardest, one of the hardest things that you see in the clients you work with that keeps them, I guess, like in the cycle of narcissistic abuse, or one of the hardest ideas or concepts or wherever they get stuck and that they're having trouble leaving. Like, what do you think is one of the hardest things, that are the most complicated parts that you see that someone goes through?
Speaker 3:That was a complicated question, I know.
Speaker 2:Let's see.
Speaker 3:So okay, so like, if we boil it down like what's some of the hardest, what's like the hardest piece in leaving, and I would say it'd be acceptance of the truth, like, because the person, so the survivor, has been going through so much and they believe their version of truth. And that version of truth might be influenced by their perspective of their childhood, their upbringing, their parents, previous relationships, and it's obviously impacted by the narcissist. And being able to have them understand this is like the weird part. Okay, so like, being able to have a person understand that your truth doesn't matter Sounds kind of weird. So bear with me for a second. Because your truth is based off of your own perspectives, ideas, thoughts and beliefs. It's not based on actual facts. Not majority of the time it's not based on actual facts. Well, like if I would have I don't know popular, like if I would have done something different, if I would have been better, if I could have done this, then he would have loved me. If I would have given him more sex, then he wouldn't have left me. All this kind of stuff. They're all different truths that they think they have, but they're not actually based on facts. And so when we're able to actually break that apart, and this steps into a piece of like radical acceptance. But when we're able to break it apart and be like, okay, let's get down to the actual evidence.
Speaker 3:What was actually demonstrated? What was actually shown? Did he do this, yes or no? Well, he kind of did, okay, did he actually do it or did he not do it? Is it 50%? Like getting really clear. This is the part that people are not automatically good at of like getting really clear of the facts of the situation. Well, he said he care about me, okay. Well, how did he demonstrate it? Well, he said he no, how did he actually demonstrate? We have to walk people through. So I would say like that's the hardest part A lot of time is getting people to actually break down the story that they're telling themselves. Oftentimes, often times, I'll phrase that first of like hey, it's a story. When I talk in some of my higher level groups, like we're just talking about the lies we believe, because it's really just, it's something that's not based on facts. So it's just a story that we're telling ourselves to justify, believe or accept the different abuse that's been happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would have said the same thing. I usually call it get right with the reality, or how do you get right with the reality of what's actually happening? And it is a lot. It's a lot of journaling and it's a lot of going back and really asking yourself do I have evidence for this? Oh well, he says he loves me. Okay, are there actions you know? Like, how does he show that? What does that mean? What does that look like? You know, and you know all of that, it just it's so deep and it's so. I think it's such an important step in this process because it just it gives you that sense of having an inner dialogue and a sense of self that is grounded and that you can trust because you've done the work to hear your own voice and to trust it.
Speaker 3:Right, no, absolutely I walk people through. I'll give you kind of a quick aspect. We walk people through like a framework to actually like work on reframing the mindset. We do it inside of a lot of digital tools that we have that I call stacking. It's what I do every single day. That helps me rewire my mindset.
Speaker 3:We take people through it and the clarity challenge it's in my upper levels, inside of my Thriver community or my mastermind, where people are sharing these stacks every single day, and it's a simple framework that kind of boils down to, first off, being stop, which is aspect of like stop and actually like acknowledge wait a second, the reality that I'm in right now might not actually be true. So, like, what I'm believing in this moment might not actually be true. So I need to be able to take a moment to step back, kind of put some of my feelings and emotions on the side and be like can I actually look at this from a strategic or a logical standpoint? Can I actually break this down with the actual facts? So then it moves from stop, it moves to submit and the submit piece is actually can I actually submit my reality to the facts of the situation, not my feelings, but just to the facts and be able to see okay, this is the evidence, as well as demonstrated, this is what we've seen.
Speaker 3:And then we move to the third stage, which is called struggle. And that's where we're struggling with okay, how do I come to terms with these facts that are here and the story that I've been telling myself? So what I want to believe? I want to believe this but actually don't have the evidence to be able to justify it.
Speaker 3:And then the fourth step is strike, meaning like now we need to actually take an action. Be like we've actually looked at this, we've gone through it, we've wrestled back and forth with the story that we actually believe. Now we actually have to adopt a new story or we have to adopt a new direction that we're going based on the facts that we know are undeniable, that are irrefutable, that are just the actual proof of what was demonstrated, what was shown. And in doing that I mean that's like a snapshot of, like what we do. It's in a much longer process, but in doing that, people are able to how I normally phrase rewire their thought process and get back to an actual reality that's based on facts versus emotions or feelings for a truth aspect that's not always grounded in reality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thank you so much for sharing that. That was really helpful, especially, I think, for people to hear how you actually begin to break that down so they get a look into what it's like to work with you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's what's built into what I do on a daily basis for myself and like in some of my groups, like I'll share what I write down, I'll share my stacks, I'll share the things that I go through and sometimes those are like 30 minutes to an hour that I'm processing, that, I'm typing, that, I'm putting stuff down. I'm like, hey, here's an angry stack. I just had to process this frustration at my daughter for her tantrum the other day. Or I just had to process, like this story I'm telling myself about this trip or this interaction and so people get to see, like me break it down like lifetime of, like I'm living this way, which is why I can speak it and why I can talk and help people through it, because I'm rewiring the stories that I believe on a day to day basis.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I'm so glad that you shared this, because I think it's so important to continue to do our personal work, and I used to teach yoga and I used to always say that like the most important part of my yoga teaching practice is that I continue to take classes and I continue to like do work on myself, and it's almost like if I wasn't continuing to do the practice, then I wasn't really showing up and I wasn't showing up in a way that made me feel proud.
Speaker 2:And even now I'm in therapy, I'm in coaching, I do like a variety of sorts of things. I'm always learning and it's like I think it's just so important to continue to educate yourself, like there's no end in place, but also to have a practitioner like you who does like they. You do, you do always continue to work on yourself, and there's like a level of humility there too, and just like vulnerability to say like this is life, you know, and I think sometimes that something that isn't talked about that much, especially like when we're just faces on Instagram or TikTok it's like the real people that have to show up every day and do our personal work so that we can also show up and help other people from a really genuine place.
Speaker 3:No, 100%. And then I mean that's a huge investment. You know, time, money, energy. It's a huge cost of time, money and energy you know, but it's like 100% worth it.
Speaker 3:But I mean I've I don't know like I've invested tons of time, energy and money over the past couple of years in working on my own growth, my own transformation. You know I'm going on. There'll be three years coming up here in therapy every single week. You know like that that gets costly, you know it gets. It gets an investment, time, time consuming. You know there's a lot of stuff I do on a daily basis, like for my own personal development and growth for me is close to probably about like an hour to an hour and a half a day, like it doesn't really shift or change much, like that's always there, no matter what kind of a thing. And then I'm involved in different groups and different aspects where I'm putting myself in situations to be forced to grow, be forced to be vulnerable, be forced to be transparent, to be able to help me continue to grow, to be the person that I'm called to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, thank you so much for being so vulnerable and for sharing it, and I also I always appreciate your insights and how you use your story in helping to educate on some of these cycles of narcissistic abuse and like so people can really understand it, and they understand it from your firsthand experience.
Speaker 3:No, absolutely. Thanks for having me on today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, can you share how people can find you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the easiest way to be able to find me would be just to go to realm motivationscom. That's the easiest way to be able to connect with me one-on-one or interact with us on some of the social media platforms. You can reach out that way. And then probably one of the most impactful ways to be able to kind of start the healing journey where we specifically target trauma bond rumination breaking out of that mental and emotional like fog, like if people stuck would be our clarity challenge and that's at claritychallengenet. It's one of the things that we've had hundreds of people go through that have been able to complete it and graduate through breaking out of trauma bonds, like all different types of toxic relationships, to ultimately be free.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Thank you so much and I will put all of your links in the show notes.
Speaker 3:No, absolutely. Thank you for having me on.