Do you find yourself confused by the terminology around Narcissistic Abuse? Katherine Kleis returns to unravel the complexities of narcissistic abuse. She helps us decipher the often bewildering lingo associated with Narcissistic relationships. We explore terms like bread crumbing and word salad and understand their role in the larger cycle of abuse.
You can learn more about Katherine and her work here: https://www.standcoaching.com/
Website: Emotional Abuse Coach
Instagram: @emotionalabusecoach
Email: jessica@jessicaknightcoaching.com
{Course} Identify Signs of Abuse and Begin to Heal
{Free Resource} Canned Responses for Engaging with an Abusive Partner
Do you find yourself confused by the terminology around Narcissistic Abuse? Katherine Kleis returns to unravel the complexities of narcissistic abuse. She helps us decipher the often bewildering lingo associated with Narcissistic relationships. We explore terms like bread crumbing and word salad and understand their role in the larger cycle of abuse.
You can learn more about Katherine and her work here: https://www.standcoaching.com/
Website: Emotional Abuse Coach
Instagram: @emotionalabusecoach
Email: jessica@jessicaknightcoaching.com
{Course} Identify Signs of Abuse and Begin to Heal
{Free Resource} Canned Responses for Engaging with an Abusive Partner
Welcome to the Relationship Recovery Podcast hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes in narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others, and heal the relationship with yourself so you can learn to love in a healthy way.
Speaker 2:Hello, thank you so much for being here Today. Catherine Klyce from Stand Coaching joins us to talk about the common terms that we hear when we discuss narcissistic abuse. We're going to go through terms like gaslighting words to allid supply and begin to break them apart so that you can understand the terms and then point to how those behaviors are starting to exist in your relationship. Catherine is a great coach. She has a lot of content on TikTok and Instagram and has a great way of breaking down some of these terms, so I highly highly recommend looking into them as you start to listen to this episode. If you notice and feel that these terms are existing in your relationship, I really invite you to explore the emotional abuse breakthrough course. This is the course that I run, self-paced, on narcissistic abuse, and it could be a great first step, an entryway, to begin to understand what is going on in your relationship and give you the validation that you need to continue on your journey. I hope this helps. Hi, catherine, thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3:Hi, thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2:Can you share with us a little bit about what you do and how you help people?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I am a narcissistic abuse recovery coach, so a lot of the work that I do to help people is by working with them one-on-one or in a group setting towards learning how to spot the signs and change the pattern and break the cycle, learn how to set the boundaries and do the internal work that needs to be done to heal.
Speaker 2:And if anybody listened to our first episode, which I'll put in the show notes, catherine talks a lot about her personal journey and what sort of brought her into doing this work now, and it's definitely, I think, a great one to listen to if somebody is just starting to go down this path and understand what narcissistic abuse is and how it shows up, I always say that the people that helped the most are the ones that went through it. This is definitely something that a lot of people don't understand without experiencing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this one is yeah for sure. So today I wanted to start to unpack some of the terms that we hear in the world of narcissistic abuse. I think that a lot of us go on TikTok which is actually where I first found you a long time ago to just begin to wrap their head around what is this and what does this mean? And begin to have words to spot the signs. I remember myself learning what gaslighting was and being like okay. Now I know, now that I see it and I really see it and I have examples, I can begin to notice that rather than reacting to it, and so I wanted to talk through some of these terms that we hear that might be confusing or people might not even know what they mean, and begin to unpack them with you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 2:So let's actually start with bread crumbing, which happens. I mean, I think it can happen throughout the whole relationship, but I think we often hear about it in the beginning. Maybe, when it ends, Can you define what bread crumbing is, of course, just in your own words.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So bread crumbing is when they give you just enough to keep you from moving on, right, they're giving you just enough to keep you holding on. So bread crumbing looks a little bit different if it's a narcissistic relationship versus somebody that say, just like a player that's just shooting you that one text every once in a while, yeah, you uptext, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thinking of you. What are you doing, like? That's like yeah, player bread crumbing, whereas narcissistic bread crumbing is much different, Right, right.
Speaker 3:So narcissistic bread crumbing is basically this essence, where if you are starving, like you haven't had food in almost 30 days, and someone gives you a bread crumb, that's a lifeline and that bread crumb is going to mean a lot more to you someone who is starving than somebody who eats steak and lobster every day and they're well fed, right, they're not starving. So the bread crumb is an analogy for love and attention. So when you are starved from that love and that validation and that affection or attention and then you get a little bit from the narcissist, it feels like this amazing gift, when really it's not a gift. It's still insulting that it should be something you're expecting, right, like I expect to eat food today. That's not something I should have to worry about receiving today, and neither should love or attention.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, that just made me think about in the cycle of abuse, when we start to, when we're in that calm stage and before attention start rising again and we start just to get these little tidbits of oh they care, oh they love. But it's never true care and never actually meeting a need that we all have. It's always like oh well, I told you I love you today, so aren't you happy? Instead of that being a normal thing in the relationship, it's this one-off thing that, for a healthy individual or a healthy relationship, would be a given, would just be part of the dynamic, right?
Speaker 3:Exactly, and it should be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, how can somebody begin to note or realize when it is bread crumbling and not actually like care or love?
Speaker 3:I think a good practice would be to kind of be marking these things on a calendar and then need the pattern right, because sometimes you feel like I'm going to use arguing for an example, because we feel like, once you get a break from that arguing, like, oh my gosh, I think they are changing. Things have been really good for a while, but in reality it's actually only been three days, yeah. So I think checking on a calendar, the highs and lows and journaling on them, is something that you can then go back and see the bigger picture of what it's looking like, Because it's hard when you're in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so hard when you're in it. Actually, probably all the things we will talk through today are really hard when you're in it, because when you're trauma-monitor you're holding on to all these pieces of hope Like those breadcrumbs, feel like that lobster dinner, but it's just, it's not, even if it feels like it is.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, yeah, once we're, it gets confusing, yeah.
Speaker 2:This is a concept that I am actually still pretty confused about exactly what it means. It's not one I talk about or, I think, ever even used on this podcast, but I was wondering if we could begin to unpack dog whistling. Can you explain what that means in the context of narcissistic abuse?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, I would love to. Yeah. So dog whistling is also an analogy to a sound that only a dog can hear. So in the context of narcissistic abuse. It is a way to abuse you in front of other people that only you will hear the hurtfulness of it, and to everyone else it could be just like a normal statement. I can give you an example.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would love to say that your partner comes home and they start devaluing you for not cleaning up the house. It's a mess again. What did you do all day? Did you even take care of the kids or work? What did you do all day? They devalue, they talk about what a bad partner you are, you're not enough as a wife, et cetera.
Speaker 3:They do all of this and you go out on the way to this dinner party. So you get there, you get to your friend's house and Marianne opens the door and she welcomes you into the home for dinner and your partner just starts complimenting her on her house and actively involves you. Tell Marianne how beautiful her house is. Get some tips from her, maybe. How do you do it all, marianne, so that everyone else is hearing a compliment? Oh my God, your husband is so nice, he's the best. He's so lovely and charismatic. You just got slapped in the face. Another way that people dog whistle is by saying something that you're deeply insecure about, that you confided in them in private and then they bring it up in public. Nobody else thinks it's a big deal, but you, in confidence, told them that, so it's really offensive. So you want to look at dog whistling as an abusive version of an inside joke, so it's inside. I don't know if you guys would understand, but it's not funny, it's actually abusive.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I wonder if this would be an example of dog whistling. I had a client this morning who she has been trying to get her partner into therapy. We know where that goes. We've talked about that before in our podcast. But she's been trying to get him into couples therapy to at least feel like she gave it a chance. That's a whole other topic. But one of the you and I are laughing, as we know where it's going to go, but she does too. That's fine. But she said I have been on him for so long about this.
Speaker 2:Every argument it comes back to like well, I've been begging you to try this, why wouldn't you try, she's like. And then we were at his parents' house and he said well, we're going to try couples therapy soon. And then when we got home I asked him about it Okay, I was surprised to hear you say that Did you do it? Are we actually going to find someone this week? And he was like no, what are you talking about? Then it completely gasped at her, but she said that when she was talking about it.
Speaker 2:I was actually wondering at the time. I wonder if this is actually one way of dog whistling, by using something that you're never going to do, but you're going to make it seem like it's both of your ideas or it's a good idea, and then it just goes away. It almost feels like it sets up for like well, she didn't try, she never went to therapy later on, and for her it was such a deep dig, it hurt so badly because it's the one thing she's been begging for and that hasn't gotten. Now apparently it's just a joke.
Speaker 3:Yeah, a little bit. It's not quite dog whistling. It sounds a little bit more like bread crumbling to me, like, oh my gosh, hope for a minute and then met with gaslighting. And then she was met with gaslighting or, like you were saying, a preemptive smear campaign. But dog whistling is more like a backhanded compliment or like an inside joke. That's not funny. But everyone else thinks it's funny, right.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, got it. Yeah, but you know how abusive it really is. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So if somebody was say so, say a narcissist, was like complaining to you about how you look, like you get dressed, you feel confident, you're about to go out, and then he's like you're wearing that seriously. And then you guys are out and he's like doesn't she look so amazing tonight? Would that be dog? That's dog, yeah, that is dog whistling?
Speaker 3:Yes, 100%, that's so offensive to devalue me about my appearance and then, when we get in public, look like the good guy for how you're treating me about my appearance. Right, yeah, right. And then you heard the problem with dog whistling is you, as the victim, are put in a situation where, if you were to reject that sentiment, you look like the bad partner. So if you don't compliment Mary Ann's house, you are now the abuser or the problem in the relationship. If you don't accept that compliment on your outfit or how you look when you're out in front of your friends, what's wrong with you? So that's the really hard part with dog whistling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think this, I mean we should probably jump into smear campaign because I think that there's a really these two like they can go together really well. But it just reminds me of like then. So then say, for example, you like are venting to like someone like you know, he was so hard on me on Mary Ann's house Like, and then they're like well, why didn't you just ask her for some like support or how she does it?
Speaker 3:Yes, Couldn't you have done something there? Well, that's the problem with narcissistic abuse is, when we go to talk to people about it, they minimize it and invalidate us because it is so subtle and systematic, right, it's death by a thousand paper cuts. So you're trying to explain one paper cat to somebody and they're like, well, that's not that bad Right. And you're like, but I'm being cut by this piece of paper a hundred times a day, you know? And then you explain to all you know they just sound crazy and unless somebody's been through it and has the A understanding and maybe even the vocabulary, they're not going to be able to do the validation that you need to like, heal or move on or receive that validation, because they've never been through it. So it really does sound like something minimal to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or that like you're, you know. It kind of goes back to the whole well, you're just not trying, or like it wasn't that bad, he wasn't being that hard on you, and it's like they have no idea of all the other million times that led to like you reacting that one time, or not even complaining, venting to somebody about it, but then it's minimized and then it makes you never really want to vent again.
Speaker 3:Well, especially when they've been minimizing your feelings, and then now you have friends or family minimizing your feelings, we're saying something. Well, have you tried to communicate to that to them? Of course I've told them a hundred times that they're hurting me. Of course I have. I've told them that this fits me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm going to go to smear campaign just because, like it's on the same topic of, like other people, minimizing. But can you define for us what a smear campaign is to start?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the smear campaign is when the narcissist is trying to spread rumors about you or smear your name. They're trying to create an alternative reality for everyone else to believe. So this oftentimes takes place in a breakup, but they can do it preemptively if they know that the relationship is coming to an end, where they start planting seeds about oh, I think she's cheating or you know whatever they're trying to convince people of, she's so controlling or abusive all of these things.
Speaker 3:And then when you break up and say especially, you break up in a reactive state you're validating the stories that they've been planting. So the smear campaign is when they are trying to destroy your reputation and paint you as the abuser or the bad guy, and just to throw another term out. This one often gets paired with flying monkeys. Yeah, that they're blind. They're loyal followers that are blindly following them and spreading the rumors too. They told me that. So it's just a bunch of toxic lies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm like the smear campaign, I think, really leads to a lot of self-gaslighting because we start to think we're crazy. You know, if all these people really believe this, are we making it up?
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, well, and I think the hard part is the narcissist is very good. They're very manipulative, so they're not necessarily taking blatant lies, they're taking half truths. So this could be something that's easy to believe because, so say, you went through their phone and you found out that they were cheating, they can use the you went through my phone part right. So they'll spread that part around. So they use half truths a lot. And that is if it's something we're insecure about, that triggers us into a defensive state which makes us look even more guilty and feel more ashamed and feel more like we're crazy. And that's where we start gaslighting ourselves Like, well, I did look through their phone, or they mean that part of that was true, but I only did it because.
Speaker 2:And then you look like, yeah, yeah, it's like, well, I shouldn't have done that. But like, and it's like it doesn't matter that you do that. Like, focus on what you found in the phone, right, let's stay with the issue. Like suspicion led you there in the first place. Yeah, now you feel like you're crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but the narcissist will never say that partly Like I've, they're going to live. I've never chewed on them. They're making these things like they want to see something or find something. Yeah, you're like, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's go into projection. Can you define what projection is in relationship to narcissistic abuse?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so projection is a defense mechanism. This is a term in psychology, so there's several different defense mechanisms, but one thing that we do is we project what we're feeling about ourselves onto other people. So we project our beliefs onto other people and our insecurities. So, in the terms of a narcissistic relationship, narcissists often project what they're doing and if you think about it, they think that you could be doing this because they know it's possible, because they're doing it. So, for example, cheating or lying or manipulating that's not out of their realm of normalcy. To believe that you would be lying or manipulating because that's their firsthand experience of life. They do it to people, so they know that people do this Right. So when they're cheating on you and they're accusing you of cheating, that level of hypocrisy, that's projection.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I see this happen a lot. In my client phase I didn't have this as much in the terms of what in actions and relationships, but I had it a lot in thoughts. Like the narcissist would say to me like you don't see it differently, you know, you're not willing to change, you're not this, you're not that. And I'd be like I am like totally a person who's willing to change, like I don't agree with what you're saying, but like I bring all of these things to my therapist and I unpack them and I think about them and like but then it would always come back to like you're this, you're that. And it just always felt like all of these were just confessions of their behavior. It's like they're unwilling to change, they don't want to see things differently. It's like by putting it on me, take the responsibility off of them because they're not actually ever going to change.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, and that's what projection is. Yeah, they are confessing.
Speaker 2:And with a lot of them like, especially with like to piggyback off the example that you had. You know it could be like you're checking my phone, you're checking my Like. It's like no, I'm not doing any of that. You know, in a lot of cases I think like the victim is pretty scared to do a lot of these things because they know the repercussions if they do, and so they don't tend to do it. But then the nurses will just complain and like be like you're doing this. You're irresponsible. I had a client recently that it was all about the money. It was like you're spending money poorly. It's like we are married, aren't we both spending money poorly? Then you know, like she was just like I don't understand. You control all the money. How can I be doing all this stuff? And it's just like. I think, in our role, like you and I, we probably have to spend a lot of time just like really looking for the truth so that we can help our clients see what's actually happening rather than these projections being real.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so if somebody is being really like, if they are confused on, if it is a projection, if it's true, whatever all of that whole mind mess, what is one thing that they might be able to do to begin to untangle that web? Is there like a practice that you have or something that you typically recommend?
Speaker 3:Well, I think that there's some things that we can't prove that they're doing what they're saying right, but it'll be a gut instinct, like cheating, for example. Sometimes we believe our partner is cheating but we don't have that red-handed evidence yet or ever, so that one isn't necessarily so. But projection you can be sure. When it's situations like you just talked about, like you're accusing me of things that you do, so that in itself would be something you can see. The problem isn't necessarily like being able to see if something's projection or not. The problem is the cognitive dissonance that keeps us from accepting that something is a lie or manipulation or projection. And I think that where people struggle it's because it's like you can even have the evidence of the abuse or the cheating and still be like I don't want to see it and I love them, and that's where the problem really. So I would say the work would be on self-esteem and cognitive dissonance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Another giant word in narcissistic abuse, but cognitive dissonance will just go over it like quickly. This could be its own podcast, not its own. But I'll say what I believe my definition is, and then I would love to hear yours. But I just keep it really basic of believing two thoughts at the same time that don't reconcile together. How do you define it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you have two conflicting thoughts that make you feel uncomfortable and you are not in unaware enough space to allow them both to be true. For example, when you're like this person, that was an abusive act but I love them. The cognitive dissonance is the creation of that third thought to make both of these thoughts allowable. So maybe that wasn't abusive or maybe I'm overreacting or I'm too sensitive. So that third thought that you create, that's the cognitive dissonance. So the work is really to step in before that third thought and allow it to be okay that I have two conflicting thoughts. In the first place, that was hurtful and I do love them and want it not to be true. But the cognitive dissonance we basically just start lying and gaslighting ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Like I said, it's such a big thing and it's a word that we hear a lot in the narcissistic abuse space, but outside of it I'd never heard about it. I never heard anyone talk about it. So, all right, let's continue on. Let's talk about hoovering. What is hoovering?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so hoovering is another analogy, just like these clever terms, right? So it's running back to the hoover vacuum, so they're trying to suck you back into the relationship. That's what the hoovering is. So when you've left the relationship or you're trying to leave the relationship, they're going to come in now like, oh, I'm going to therapy, or I will go to therapy, or I'm going to change, or I booked a vacation for you, or here's the wedding ring now. So any attempt that they can to get you back, and it's not always nice. So I just gave a bunch of like love bombing type examples. But hoovering sometimes be like texting you an outrageous lie just to get you to break no contact and start arguing back. Because once they've got you in a state of breaking no contact, then you'll be, arguing.
Speaker 3:You'll be like that is not how this happened. And they're like I know let's talk about it at dinner tomorrow night I'll see you at eight. And now, all of a sudden, you have dinner plans with them when you were just no contact. So that's hoovering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think we see that happen. We see that happen all the time. Or it seems like there's like, would you say, like when a narcissist just sort of like say they just like they want to follow up on something, they want to get something back, they want to ask for something, they just want to like be, you know, they try and find ways to be around you, even though they're saying all these other negative things about you. Is that considered hoovering too? Like, oh, that sweatshirt that I never, ever wanted, but now I need, you know, just curious, if I could stop by and grab it, you could leave it outside, don't even have to talk to me. Like, would that be hoovering too?
Speaker 3:Oh, definitely, that's definitely hoovering and, like I said, it's always nice. It could be like you're stealing my sweatshirt, yeah, yeah, I don't care about your sweatshirt, yeah, but they are. They're just trying to open that window back up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're like, the sweatshirt has been like in a bag in the closet, like not in the trash, because I knew you'd react you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Now you're only calling it stealing because I won't respond to any of your other nice attempts to break no contact and it's just any desperate measure to get you back. I had my ex tell me he had things of mine he was going to drop off and it wasn't. It was a note that he wrote.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're like what thing is this? I didn't want this thing. Like this, wasn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 3:The letter.
Speaker 2:I didn't ask for, yeah, to break no contact. I had an ex that, like a few days before my birthday two years ago, he wrote an email and, like the last time we had talked, he told me that he's never going to speak to me again. And it was hey, it's like a used car salesman. It was like hey, you just want to like, just kind of like check in, you know, and just see how things are going. Also, have a funny story to share from the Cape. Like let me know when you can talk. I actually sent it to a friend. They were like is this like literally somebody trying to sell you a car? I was like, no, like. And they were like well, like. I was like this is ridiculous. And then I said no, like I broke back because I knew it would keep going and I was like I'm not interested or in a place to talk to you. I have moved on, I would like to maintain no contact. And then the next day I get a birthday present left for me. I'm like great, and now I'm not going to respond to this, it's going to lead to something else. I don't respond to that.
Speaker 2:I eventually he brought back every single thing that he had of mine, including, like cleaning supplies, and put it in a bag and left it in my vestibule. And I like woke up one Saturday morning and was like took the, took my dog out and I was like, what the fuck? Like it had my name on it on a post-it with three garbage bags and I like literally just picked them up and put them all in the trash because I didn't even know what was inside of it. But like I was like I could see cleaning supplies, like and I'm just like, oh my God, this is the most ridiculous thing. It's some, yeah, so bad. They are the most ridiculous humans, yeah, so bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like, I've heard some really ridiculous stories from people too, of just like like yours, like of like you know, I have something of yours, actually just a letter, you know, that's so bad.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's not anything yeah.
Speaker 2:Let's actually go into supply, because that's what they're trying to get to is narcissistic supply. That's what we define for us narcissistic supply.
Speaker 3:Yeah, supply is anything that the narcissist is using, I guess, to feel better about themselves. So that could be people, or attention or affiliation or status. But in the terms of narcissistic relationship, we usually call their supply their main source of who they're abusing. So this is typically the partner. So you're their main source of supply. We call it the primary source. So this is who they're using to feel that sense of power, fulfill that need of control, or to belittle you and devalue or say that you have one of the narcissists that's using you. They're stealing all your money, sleeping on your couch. They're like freeloading Whatever they're taking from you, you've become their supply. So they'll have more than one source, sometimes, like maybe some of the children where they'll start cheating or latching onto another person. That will become the secondary source, but you may still be the primary until they switch and then they'll take a new supply. So we call when they move on and start dating someone else, we often call that person the new supply.
Speaker 2:And any supply is supply for a narcissist right. Like it could be positive, it could be negative. It seems like narcissists still get supply, even if they're pissed off by you. It still gives them, I guess, that sense of control that they were looking for.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, so negative attention is good attention to them. If you think about the way a child throws a tantrum to get attention, they know the difference. These adults are still emotionally children. So that negative attention translates into the narcissist's mind as, like, I do have control over you because I can control your emotions, I can control your reactions. When they start showing you all this love and attention and they successfully Hoover you back, they take that as a personal. They're so good that they could do that right. That was an ego stroke for them. I can make them feel great and I can take it away and make them feel awful, and it makes them feel powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always think about it as like that chase for control. In some way, there's always like a need to have it and it's like this, like baton that just keeps being pushed back and forth, but just like one person, the victim is not picking up the baton. They don't want the baton. They've decided like, especially when we're healing, we like want the baton, like in the river, and there's something that the narcissist continues to chase.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people struggle with that feeling or, I guess, with the idea that this is like an inner need for them. It's almost like part of a game for them in some way. I noticed that come up a lot with my clients. Is like they really struggle, that like it's just supply. Does that come up for you too?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely. I think that might be the hardest part of the whole thing is struggling with that thought. I think this is for a couple reasons. One reason is we relate who people are based on the way we are. So if we're not capable of using a human being to that extent, without remorse or empathy, that is unfathomable to us because it's not a world our brain knows. So, first of all, that's really hard to accept about a human being. I think that it's hard to accept because that would be a very deep rooted belief system. So not only do I have to change the way I think about this person, I have to change the way I think about humanity. And more than I have to change the way I think of humanity, I have to change the way I think about myself, because I thought we were in love and I chose this person. And if this person is looking at me as nothing more than a means to an end, what does that say about me and do I want to know the answer to that?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think that's really hard for people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's such a good point and that is something that I don't think can be understated is that it's not just about recognizing that I'm not seeing this clearly. I'm not necessarily seeing humanity clearly. Not everybody is a nice human who cares deeply about others and doesn't want to hurt people. Some people just want what they want and they want to see the world their way. That was a really hard lesson for me, and one that was pretty, I guess, gaslit by other people in my life who were like you just see abuse everywhere. Why can't you do this? Why can't you just let this go? I'm like, because once you start to see it, you see it everywhere.
Speaker 1:That's how this works you can't see it in one area.
Speaker 2:Yeah and be like okay, this is abusive, but that person who's treating me like shit over here, they're not abusive and that person that's exemplifying the exact same behaviors. Not abusive, because they said they're not. It's like that's not how it works. It's like you kind of have to yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and once we built this belief on how we view humanity, we've built 100 million other beliefs on that. I have to question everything I believe now, because I've based so much of what I think on this and now you're telling me that's not true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it leads to a lot of self-gaslighting when we're not able to see and decipher what's going on most of the time because, like, when we do talk to other people about it and they don't understand, they don't really see, they don't see what we see. But we really need to kind of come back for ourselves and just Continue to educate and to continue to understand so that way we don't self-gaslight and that we can begin to see clearly and, like kind of lean into all the self-care that you talk about too. You know that you mentioned here of like we need to be there for ourselves.
Speaker 2:Absolutely the last one I wanted to touch on was word salad, and Can you explain how you define word salad?
Speaker 3:Yeah, word salad is my dad's favorite. Word salad is when the narcissist is just saying a whole bunch of words. It's incoherent and it's just they're putting words together to confuse you. They go off topic, they go off on tangents, they make things up you won't know, but they do it so fast that it's hard to keep track of the argument. They can go layers deep and out and around before you even know what's happening and it just makes you feel really confused. Sometimes Narcissists that are more intellectual Might start to use that in their word salad to kind of patronize you or make you feel like you're just not able to keep up with the conversation or you're not able to communicate as well as them, when in reality they are not using healthy or effective communication at all, while convincing you that you don't know how to communicate effectively.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so would you say it would be considered word salad if you're in a disagreement with them and that Disagreement keeps going to all these other topics that have nothing to do With the issue that you started with. Is that word salad or is that more gas lighting?
Speaker 3:I think that word salad is a form of gas lighting. Yeah, but I do think that's word salad when they are going around and not talking about the topic at hand. So some of these more circular arguments that are going absolutely nowhere, those are very, very likely word salad.
Speaker 2:Got it. Yeah, how could we begin to spot word salad when it's happening? I think that I probably found myself in a lot of circular arguments that I never needed to be in, but I had no idea how to get out of or even just to pause in the moment to be like what is happening.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so when you don't know, it's kind of it's crazy making. How do you know that's what's happening? But once you start to suspect and now, which you must be, if you're listening to this and you want to try and Institute some tools, what I would do is I would go into an argument and Almost give a pep talk to myself before. Right, like I'm going in, I am not allowing us to get off the topic of Tuesday. That was an example I used in a video Tuesday. And so when they're trying to Get away from Tuesday, you're having a dialogue with yourself, right? So you're like no, this is the topic Tuesday, tuesday, tuesday, tuesday. So you're keeping track in your mind and if they're a person that just Refuses to stay on topic and it continues, they continue to try and go circular, no matter how many times you just Feed them that same sense back. No, no, we're talking about Tuesday now talking about that.
Speaker 3:That's a pretty good indication that you're with somebody that is using word salad or, at a minimum, is a toxic argueer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and, like you said, like words out, it's a form of gaslighting. So, once we're able to be like, once we're able to really like, take that space and notice, like this is the pattern that happens, which kind of goes back to one of the first things you said about the calendar, like when we talked about bread crumbing. If we have a way to document and put some of these things down, we can see the patterns. It will help us not get so wrapped up in the cycle and not be engaging in all these things and all these Words and all these concepts that are not healthy, right? Yeah, yeah, they're not. Thank you so much for unpacking this with me today.
Speaker 2:I really enjoyed your descriptions and I knew that you'd be the perfect person to talk to about this. Just from watching your videos, I remember when I was first educating myself on what all these were. That was so helpful because it made it digestible. My favorite are the ones that you talk about, like the pointlessness of arguing with a narcissist. I mean so if anybody is on tiktok or Instagram and the checkout. Catherine, like, I really enjoy Understanding some of these concepts by watching other people explain them, so can you share with us how people can find you and what your offerings are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, of course. So you can find me at my website stand coaching calm, that's s t a nd. Stand coaching, and my email is coaching at gmailcom. That's my website, and there you can find everything that I offer, which is individual coaching. This summer, I launched group coaching, and so that's been a really great community for people. I have a program that really goes over in depth all of these tactics that are getting used against you, but it also spends a week on cognitive dissonance and a week on breaking the trauma bond. So that program is available as well on my website, and then, on top of that, I have the playbook that we talked about. So the narcissist playbook has 26 of these tactics in it, with explanations of what they are and how to protect yourself from it, and so that's a really, really good resource, because you can't combat manipulation If you don't know the manipulation tactics that are being used, right Like you can't protect yourself from brainwashing, so really important to know how they brainwash and groom you. So that playbook is all on my website as well, awesome.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, thank you so much and I will be sure to put your links in the show notes so people can find you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you so much for having me.