Co-Parenting with Grace: Navigating Difficult Waters with Kind Mama Coaching

Co-parenting with a high-conflict ex can be one of the most challenging tasks a parent may face. It requires patience, communication, and above all else, an unwavering focus on the well-being of your child. Tessa from Kind Mama Coaching joins us to discuss her new childrens book, Stella's Two Homes, and strategies for co-parenting with a difficult ex. This is a very important and informative episode. The key takeaway? Keep your kids out of adult issues and avoid making them pick sides.

You can find Tessa here: https://www.kindmamadivorcecoaching.com/

Connect with her on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/coachkindmama/

Get a copy of her book! https://www.amazon.com/Stellas-Two-Homes-Tessa-Noel/dp/B0D1NR4S78

Transcript

Welcome to the relationship recovery podcast. Hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes in narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others and heal the relationship with yourself, so you can learn to love in a healthy way. Hello, and welcome back. Thank you so much for being here as always.

Today, I have 1 of my favorite people. Kind mama coaching. Her name is Tessa, and she joined us again to talk about the intricacies, of c parenting with a high complex person, and we start with a discussion about her new book, 1 that she describes very well, but that also, I have so much love for the idea behind. So we start with that, and then we go into the ins and outs of sharing, custody, sharing, parenting time, and the child experience of going back and forth and some of the things that we deal with on a day to day basis. Often we have episodes that are in more of these big topic areas of how to deal with this giant issue, what is the strategy mindset for this.

But with this episode, You talk more about the day to day, the things people are really dealing with, as well as how to begin to talk about 2 homes. With your kid. I highly recommend looking into Tessa on at kind mama coaching on all platforms, her links as well as linked to her book will be in the show notes. And just remember that this journey is hard, it's complex, but you have the support of people like me, people, like, Tessa to really be there and who understand and who want you and your kids, to be as happy and as successful as possible. As always, you can find me at emotional abuse coach dot com at emotional abuse coach on Instagram and Tiktok, and you can email me at jessica at jessica coaching dot com.

Hi, Tessa. Thank you so much for joining me again. Hi, Jessica. Thank you so much for having Jan. For those who haven't listened to your other episodes, which they should.

And I'll put them in the show notes. Can you tell us who you are and what you do? Yeah. So my name is T Noel. I am a certified divorce coach and c parenting specialist.

And I am an also of now a children's book author. I just published my first children's book, and I work 1 on clients, who are going through separation and divorce, and I'm really passionate about educating parents on how to help their children through the process as well and keep them out of the conflict. Of divorce separation. I love that you just wrote a children's book. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yes. So I wrote a book, it's called Stella 2 Homes. I wrote it because when I went through my divorce. Almost 7 years ago now. My kids were 10 months old and 2 years old.

And I will little kind of just to, like, so little. Right? I wanted a book that kind of just introduced the topic of 2 homes. Right? And and made it a little bit more comfortable and then kind of a way for me to talk about divorce or a separation or with them how you can to go between homes.

So I went to the library, and I looked in this special section of, like special issues for children's books, and I found a book called dinosaurs divorce it was written in the eighties. It's got some really cool illustrations, but it also had a lot of things that I did not want my children to know about. Mh. It defined... That I have it right in front of me.

It defined divorce as divorce takes place between mothers and fathers. You are not to blame if your parents get divorced. And that's very specific. Yeah. Hey.

Yeah. But what if it's not a mother and a father? What if it's not, I don't know What if your situation is different. And so I was like, wow, I really want a not so specific book for my young children. Right?

And this this dinosaur divorce book even has a appendix in the beginning, and it defines certain words like visiting rights, Alimony step parent, separation agreement judge, court. I don't know about you, but my kids don't know I've ever set foot in a courtroom Mh. I don't want them to know. Maybe until they're adults. I don't want them to ask me about child support or Alimony.

Mh. Because these aren't issues. That they should be concerned about because children are naturally in inc and they're gonna ask follow questions. Right? What's this?

What does this mean? So I was like, that that book is not appropriate for my family. I think somewhere else in the book it also says, you know, your parents got divorced because they don't love each other. I'm mis voting. I'm sure.

But it says something like bad And I'm like, no No. Mh. Oh, yeah. Parents divorce, parents divorce when they don't love each other. Or can't get along together anymore.

And I was still in love with my husband when he left. So that also wasn't appropriate. And then I didn't want it a follow question to be, you know, well, mom is is Dad gonna stop loving me or is is... Are you gonna stop me? A So I I just wanted to a children's book that kind of just introduced the concept of the child going to 2 separate homes.

Right? And we know that children... Especially young children identify as both parents. Right? They're not completely finished developing their own identity apart from their parents So I wanted to make sure that children saw both homes in a positive light.

So in my book, the main character I need her after, my daughter, Stella, Stella goes between 2 homes. But 1 of her homes is her mom's house, and her mom is a fairy. Mh. And they mix potions and have magical fun little adventures they go on. And then her other Parent is a mermaid, and they also go on beautiful whim will fun adventures.

So Overall, it's just a it's a Whim fun magical book that children would wanna to read anyways. It also happens to introduce the topic of divorce or separation in the introduction of the 2 homes, 1 family concept. But So also didn't put the word divorced in this book because I wanted parents who aren't divorced who maybe just separated and never got married. To feel included in that as well. But the whole basis of me writing that book was I as a c parenting specialist, I'm passionate about keeping the kids out of the conflict.

Right? Mh. A lot of times, especially in the beginning of a divorce or separation. There's gonna be a lot of conflict. And, it's really important for us to I...

Understand that young children are not capable of coping with unsettling details of divorce, or able to cope with some of the conflict of the divorce. I actually came up with a principle that I used to describe to my clients. Mh. What they need to keep in mind when c parenting and it's called the Santa Claus principle. Basically, in c parenting when your children are still young enough to believe in Santa.

Right? Mh. They're at that age range. You can't put a specific age on it because children develop differently. But as long as they're young enough to believe in Santa, it's important to remember that they will often see out their other parent through a a similar magical lens.

And this is gonna fade naturally as they get older, especially if you're c parenting with a eye conflict c parent, which means in normal role a podcast on last time. Yeah. They're gonna figure it out but it's not your job to to ruin the magic for them. Mh. They're they're going to...

Eventually grow older, be more mature and figuring out. But because they especially young children identify with both parents, right, they hear your dad as a cheater or they hear your mom as a liar. They're hearing you or a cheater or you are a liar. Because they haven't... Developed their own identity separate from their parent.

So it's really important that and that's why why I this book that that it's both homes look whim and beautiful and are important, and I really stress the the 2 homes 1 family concept. Mh. And that the child is is made up of both parents. Right? Because they wanna feel that both for banking relationships are important.

Even though you need you anybody might not have a... That view of of the person they created a child with anymore. It's important that that child is able to have that magical view while they still can even though. It's going to fade eventually most likely. And then I I included a discussion question at the end of the book.

So it's really interactive, and Yeah. Thank you. For sharing so much about it. I think I love that the... It's like, relatable and that they're...

Like, each home is different, but they're both still magical. They're both magical. Mh. Yeah. Like, it just it my daughter loves Disney.

So when you said it was like, okay. We're going... Like, we're going to, like, Ariel g, and then we're going over here, you know, feel, like, tinker bell, Yeah. And when... Mh...

And when you're reading the book. Yes. And the the illustrations are amazing too. So when you're reading the book, it is, like, open Zip little adventure, and and it is beautiful and in apple both homes. Yeah.

So... And then at at the end of the book, sell you know, if there's a part. I'm just gonna read it for you. That's when I miss mom or dad, I know what to do, I look in the mirror and see them they're too and so she's standing there and seeing multiple her parents in the mirror. And I think that's important too because do children don't wanna feel...

Don't wanna have to feel like they have to pick 1 1 parent over the other. Right? Right. So, yeah. It's just a...

I used to... At bedtime tell my kids bedtime stories and talk about their, you know, a little girl who went between 2 homes just because I couldn't find a booklet loving this and until I until I wrote it. But I would say, like, oh, nit, you know, mom dropped him off at the beach for their for their visit with dad and Yeah. And, you know, talked about the dad, Mermaid dad's life and how they died for, pearls and they'd search for sea glass and they'd fireworks on the beach and had this beautiful relationship with their dad at dad's house, but then also at mom's house, they got to do 1 wonderful magical things as well. Mh.

So and that's what is really important for especially for the younger kids is knowing that they're made up of both parents and they're both equally important. I really appreciate that you touched on the concept too of 2 homes, but 1 family because I think that if that gets lost a lot of the time when you were talking about it, it just really made reflect on how important that is for the child to see that, like, with my mommy and my daddy. Mh. Be are 1 family. And there may be other people, you know, that are at daddy's house.

There might be other people that are at Mommy's house. You know, or a baby Mommy's house, you know, includes extended family, and dad's house includes, like, maybe a new relationship or maybe a noose, Yeah. Or a new sibling. Yeah. How you talk to your your child about a new sibling at that other parent house.

Right? Especially if it's kind of uncomfortable for you. And I that why I actually had to do that. Yeah. Oh, yes.

Well Well so so am I. Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Right.

It's a little off topic, But It's it's Sure it's actually in topic because the topic is how do we help our kids, you know, when they are involved in the high comp, like, divorce process. But, in case anyone's listening to this and they're, like, oh my god. How did you do that? Like, the cliff notes of that, They are. I didn't know what to do.

But no. We don't know. Yeah. My kid was very confused. She was 4, and I think she was excited when she was there and then would express nervous to me or maybe it didn't...

I don't know. I think if I was a kid, I would probably have trouble expressing nerves too the parent that's having the kid, you know, I think it was confusing for her, which is fair because at 4, I think everything's is confusing. And so I actually went to a child social worker to talk to them about ways that I can support Charlotte. That didn't necessarily involve the other parent because I had an idea that he wouldn't agree with what I was hearing, but I was like, I I kinda had to figure out how to treat it in my home knowing that her sister will always be in her life, and that I want her to feel positive about that, and The social worker basically said, like, do your best to validate her and help her understand that, like, her feelings are completely valid no matter what they are and that they might shift and change every. And that's also valid.

And she encouraged me to draw pictures, but Charlotte of different homes and, like, different iterations of people and we have a cat new dog and so we were drawing... Like, we would add them at at times and, you know, Charlotte would draw my mom in some pictures and then she would draw some of her dad, and his new wife and the sister, and this is, like when she's 4. So it's all little tiny stick figures, but it started to help Charlotte shape who her family is. Yes. And I think that, like, I had to put any feelings I had about, like, oof, this is rough.

Of course. I wanted to have a baby. You know, maybe not with him, but I wanted to have a baby. You know, Maybe I wanted to give her first sibling, which is... But this is where we are.

Right? And it's okay. And, like, I'm actually pretty okay with where it is now because I was not in a place to give for a sibling for a while, you know, just because I'm Parenting. But it's like that idea of, like, that that family can be whatever he wants it to be and now she actually draws. Friends in 2 all the time.

So if she's drawing her family, she'll add friends from school that she's known for 3 time. Yeah. He's been like her sister and or, you know, or, like, my best friend is his name is Dave, and he's in New York, but she calls a uncle Dave and it's because Dave's always been... Is always been there. He's been there as long as my brother's is...

Mh. So... Yeah. I know that was a little tangible. But I know my.

It's great because it's a... It's yes. It's a perfect example of how you supported your child through that giant, change because even good even good things like a new baby or a move a move to a new house, these are big giant changes during a very delicate developmental stage of your child's life. Right? And they have the potential to impact that development.

And where that comes out is the behavior, like you said. Right? So children communicate through behavior. And if you do notice something, you know, is off like this... You feeling...

Your child is feeling dis regulated. Because of this big giant change, you need to figure out how to support them. What tools you need to get to support them through this change And I mean, I us as as mothers were so intuitive and so in tune with what our children are experiencing, like... For me, it's right away. Like, whoa whoa what's going on.

Right? And my children were, they're so little when when we... Divorced, you know, 10 months in 2 years. So we didn't... I didn't really see...

And their dad was out of the house traveling a lot anyways, So it wasn't a big difference. We hadn't moved yet, but then when my coherent moved to a different state that when they were, I think, 4 and 6. That was something. That you know, caused these behavioral changes, behavioral issues that. And that's...

I mean, that's just then letting us know. Hey. I need help. Right? Yeah.

And that's how I knew. Okay. I gotta go get my kids and therapy out. Gotta go figure this out. Better find a tool to help them.

Right? But in a, you know, high conflict c parenting relationship, you get these things you're constantly being given opportunities to learn and grow, Mh child. And so there are things that c parents will either intentionally or unintentionally do that then your child's coming to with the behavior. You have to kinda of figure it out. Like, what's going on here.

Then I have kind of outlined some of these c parenting Mh. Issues that can can do that. And then I... I've got examples of what to do if your child is coming home from the other parents house. Yeah.

Basically are doing these things. What we typically see is that d regulation as we see them this regulated and see them, you know, active behavioral and then we're trying to, like, look at the behavior and figure out what's going on because, usually, I don't... They don't say anything. Or they'll say a lot of things that mh don't necessarily make sense. So we don't want to inter them, and it's hard to figure it out.

But I guess, like, that's usually the sign that, like, the the high conflict c parent is involving the kids in things they... Shouldn't necessarily be involved in. In adult matters. Yeah. Absolutely.

Right? In in adult matters, and they should absolutely be kept out of that. And again, they're little brains. They're are not... They're...

They shouldn't be involved even if they were young adults. Right? But they're... They don't know how to cope. They can't.

Their their brains are not fully developed to cope with the adult matters or be thrown into the conflict or the messi of the divorce, something that I see a lot you know, in my coaching practice is parents who will ask their children to spy. And they don't say, hey. I need just buy on my mom. On your mom. Right?

They don't come out and say that. But they'll say, they'll ask questions. Right? So they're attempting to obtain information about the other parent. Who did your mom date?

Or did your mom buy a new Tv? Can you find out for me? Or is your mom asking you to ask me that? Right? And that's that's, like, a c parenting game.

I I call the Isp spy game. Mh But this can cause what's called a loyalty bind in your child where your child feels obligated to side with 1 parent or the other. And your child should never again, never be asked to choose between parents. Yeah. So what you can do if your child is saying, oh, you know, dad's asking me if if you did this or whatever.

You have to address it directly with your, unfortunately. So them a talk parents message and say, hey, our daughter came home saying that you are asking are these questions, and then you're gonna state a boundary. Right? You can't involve our children in adult matters, we're gonna have to talk to the therapist about this or just let them know the implications, like, this is not this is not okay. If you need information, ask me directly, and then you can even teach your child a script.

Right? Just like, yeah, 1 sentence. If your dad asks you questions about me. You can... It's okay for you to say, I don't wanna talk to you about that.

Let's talk about something else. Right? Yeah. Or mom says it's mom says it's okay to not answer questions about her. Right?

Just to like, empower them with the words or the boundaries. And they're gonna be able to practice it because because most likely your c parents is not gonna listen to you the first time if they're a high conflict have narcissistic tendencies. They're not gonna listen to you. They're gonna continue doing it. And that's why again, another really important factor of this, you really should have your children in therapy if you are dealing with a high confidence here because there are lots of issues that maybe your c is not gonna listen to you about it, but they will listen to the therapist.

Right? And And if you can specifically say to the therapist, this is the behavior my child is exhibiting. This is why you know, they're being... Being asked to spy at dad's house and then the therapist to be like, okay. Let's let's not do that more obviously.

Right? And what what we're gonna say? Yeah. And also encouraging the child to speak to the therapist about the thing that's coming up for them. My child's therapist will role play with her, which I think is really helpful.

She'll be like, she'll be like, I'll be, you know, even, like, we when we... She's talking about, like, a friend thing. She'll be like, I'll be this. I'll be that and the recently, Charlotte wanted to set a boundary and she she asked me to write it down, like, kinda write it down for her so that she could remember what to say. She but I think it's so helpful.

And yeah. Very empowering because that they're learning boundaries in school. And it's like, yeah. We're even that little songs. Yeah.

Yeah. Have you heard the little barrier on the opposite cove. So probably different. Yeah. Yeah.

That... Yeah. That is something they're being taught in schools, and that's super important. Mh. So then they can use it there and 1 thing that I noticed that my child are to do is she'll...

In school they're learning about thought bubbles. It's like, well, that thought should have stayed in your thought bubble, you know, and not have come out. And so Charlotte able to notice that, which I think is, like, really great. Like, and, but she'll say it's to me all the time about other people. I should be like, you know, this friend at school said this, and I think that should just stayed in their thought bubble.

And not have come out of their mouth, You know? And, like, so, like, using their language too can be so helpful with those boundaries, like, they'll take their language and help them figure out that boundary even to realize like... Yeah. Like you said, I... Mommy said it's okay if I don't talk about Mommy here.

If it's okay. Yep. Yeah. And I'm had to do that. You know, my daughter and when she in second grade had this little boy that was pursuing her, and it was awkward and it was embarrassing, and he would like, try to hold her hand on the playground and embarrass her in front of all our friends.

And I said, you can tell that boy that your mom said, that you are not allowed to have a boyfriend, mh, and that he's not allowed to hold your hand and that your mom said. And that's okay. And that kind of empowered her to be, like, Sorry, not my fault. My mom said that I can't. Right?

And so that's something too that I'm, like, I want you to know. You're allowed. To do this. It's... I said it's okay.

Yeah. That's something you can do with your children too. And you're allowed to to say, I don't like it when you ask me question about mommy me It makes Bi Yucky, and she said I don't have to answer questions like that. Right? Yeah.

Don't Yeah. I'm just kind of, like, I ask, of course, I'm taking notes and I just look down, and I I don't wanna forget to ask us about the 2 homes, about bringing items to the 2 homes because I what's very typical in that I see in almost every case you know, that I work with or I'm a part of is that there's 1 home where... You could bring anything to and it's fine. There's 1 home where it is quick sand and you'll never see those items again because they never again into the earth, Yeah. And then they'll you'll never get do that.

Or you'll be especially sized even if you have a vagina. You fast because you send an item, and, like, how dare you? And it's it's a lot because it's like, these are the child's things. And they want Things. And Yes.

You know, and there's debt... It's definitely very hard. And, you know, I mean, I at the point if that my daughter really wants to bring something, I'll just purchase a double or if she loves... She leaves it. It's fine.

If it's like a book or something that I know she loves, I make the mom decision about it. If it's a Barbie doll, it's. But what do you tell parents to do or how to think about it? So for the most part for the most part, I would say, what's at mom do that mall. Okay.

Does the dads do the dad's work. But there are some things, like maybe a stuffy that... Yeah. They can't go to sleep without. And it's...

It's it's hard because that child wants to bring their comfort animal to the other parents house, but also you run the risk of looting it and not having at your house. Mh. I would say in situations like that. Yeah. Absolutely get a double.

Absolutely get a double because, you know, they're super important things. Other things like a child's inhaler, get a double because you cannot be without that item. Yeah Right. Yeah. And it just depends.

It's on a case to case basis. Like, do you do you me hoodies? Yeah. That you never be to the other house. And they just...

Who literally never come back. So then I just started making, like, a conscious decision of on the days that they go to dad, I'm not gonna dress them in rags, but I'm definitely not gonna put them in the brand new 30 dollar sweatshirt. I just brought them or the Yeah. Name brand Nike keys I'm not I'm not because if those things don't come back, then I'm kind of out of that money and also mad at myself. Right?

So Yeah. And I'm... And I don't wanna reach out to the other parent and be like, hey, where are those brand news issues I just bought for her. Because that just creates more of a issue. So that I just don't send them with the expensive clothes I have had to buy over and over and over and over again, new hoodies, new shoes.

I remember what time, it was Sunday night. Okay? Sunday night. But I got the kids home. It was late mid school in the morning, and my son had ripped his backpack, and I got that news as they were being dropped off.

Oh, by the way, you're, you know, our son doesn't have a backpack or school tomorrow. Like... 07:30 at night. Yeah. And I had to take the kids, put them in the minivan.

Mh drive to Walmart, get a new backpack so that I So... Yeah. So situations like that, it's just Yeah. So hard. So hard.

But it's still, like, don't never put a coherent notch. You just gotta do. Yeah. I think knows just like that you just got a new. Yeah.

You just gotta have to do... It and so... Yeah. And so, ultimately, think about what's best for my child in this situation. Yeah.

Right? But then also, are you are honoring your own time energy? Right? From. Are you setting yourself up for disaster when they won't go to bed because you sent their most precious.

Toy to Dad's house and it got lost in their. Yeah. Other, you know, step children's or half kid app siblings bedroom mess. Yeah. Some things you have to let go, and then just always just consider what's best for my child in the situation.

Yeah. If they're begging you, please, please, plea. Please, can I bring my Pokemon collection to to you know, my? I wanna bring it... No show my half brother.

My Pokemon collection. You can have a conversation with your child and be like, are you prepared for this to not come back? Mh. You know, I'm not gonna buy you a whole new Pokemon card collection. If this goes to your dad's house and it never comes back, then it's just gonna be a dad's house forever.

Okay? Mh And then, I guess, you're kinda teaching them life lesson too if it doesn't come back. Right. I know a lot of kids also talk to their parenting in between. Visits, they...

It also could be something like, if they're really worried about it to tell to as another boundary or advocating, like Tel dad, tell or maybe it's mom, you know, that's high conflict or, like, just tell them, I really need to bring that back so I can enjoy it here too. Can you help me? You know, and sort of Yeah. Advocating for what, what they need. Right.

There. Right. Keep keeping things in their backpack too if you... You have a child... A school age child that goes back and forth.

You know, you could just put it in there. Mh. That, make sure it stays in the backpack, and then, you know, that's as long as backpack coming home, hopefully that toy or part project or whatever it is. We'll come home too. Yeah.

I have to actually backpack thing... It's a... I think that's... A bit important because I... I've noticed some parents.

I mean, I've had clients say to me, like, well, I'm not responsible for what goes in there back. And I'm like, well, I think you are on these transition days because that you are responsible for making the transition as easy as possible for your child. Back Right spoke within your power and Yeah. In their backpack and making sure their items are in it. So that way, you're not then reaching out to the c saying you forgot to ask me for this, like don't set yourself and your child up for failure, set them up to succeed and to be happy.

Yes. And I think something too. Is there's, like, there's a learning curve. Like, if you're freshly separated. Mh.

Maybe your c doesn't know the brand of tampon your daughter wants to use. Mh. Or her care routine. Right? So meet...

Yeah, go ahead and make sure she's got her purse, with her all her personal items that she wants to bring. And then also let him know, hey, these are the brands, and that's there's a there's a feature in walking parents where you can use info library. You can put everything in there from your children's favorite fig spaghetti sauce, fucking to what medications they're on to what brand of shampoo they like or what their sizes are and that makes it so much easier so you're not the default parent. They're not always like, or or your child doesn't like to go over there because they don't have their favorite things. They eat weird food over at dad's house.

Or mom's house. They don't know what brand of pancake I like to eat. They don't know what spaghetti sauce I eat. Mh. Well, guess what?

It's our job as c parents. To encourage that relationship with the other parent. Yeah. By supporting that role. Now we don't have to do everything for them.

Right? But we can provide all the information and then take hands off. Like, okay. Here. Here's everything you need.

I'm setting for up for success. Our her daughter said she doesn't like going over your house because You don't have her favorite cereal. You don't use her. The laundry detergent over their smells weird kid... Kids come up with a weird thing.

Yeah. Oh you. Yeah. My jeans. I don't like jeans.

I don't like jeans and they only have jeans, like, like, like, pants, jeans, and I was like, yes? I was like well, yeah So I just threw a bunch of leggings in there 1 time and I was like, here you go. You can leave them there. They might never come back. Yep.

You know, Because I was, like, there... That's easier than saying my daughter ups upstairs. Yeah. Yeah. You know.

Yep. Yeah. My daughter went through this phase. Where she had to wear a training bra under every single shirt, but they had to be a specific kind of training bra. Right?

It had to be a wider strap it had to have enough coverage. You know, she's... Just a training bra. She wasn't actually need it yet. But it was this space she was going through.

And so you you bet your butt, I went to the target and I bought 2 packs, 1 for me, 1 for her to put in her backpack just in case, you know, so that she had 1 for every day she was at dads until he took initiative and went and bought her bras for his house too. So if there is a learning curve. Like, okay, you know. And I'm I'm gonna... I'm gonna go to my daughter...

To target with my daughter. And have her pick out the perfect comfy bra. And I'm gonna take take that effort and do the research and figure out exactly specifically what it is that she wants so that she feels comfortable. And I know he probably won't go to all those steps. Right.

But then when... Once I get that, this her favorite brand. This is where I got it. I provide that information. And I never have to do whatever again.

Right? I already did it. And sure enough, Yeah. You know, few weeks later. He went to Target and bought her favorite.

Yeah. So it's just... And then in that situation, that's me going, okay. What is my child need? What if they need to be comfortable?

And then, you know, I'm gonna communicate it with my c my c parent, and then, you know, hopefully, they'll take initiative if they don't, I would have continued to send bras over to his house forever. For forever 18. But they was I think that the event is, like, continuing to take initiative of what you have control over in your world with your kid. But so and, giving the tools that, like, almost, like, communicating what they need to know. But then kind of releasing responsibility on the rest of it unless your child needs you to do it.

For something like a, like a bra, like you said, you know, with something like, pokemon cards. It's not, like, you're not gonna email them constantly say make sure those cards are in there, but it's more, like, setting up the expectation with your kid. And then... Mh. Really just trying to help them as much as possible to facilitate this idea that the 2 homes are both your homes that I want you to be comfortable in home homes.

Yep. Exactly. And I feel like if a parent doesn't, accept that they get into trying to control the other parent, trying to manipulate it. Like you don't send home there Hoodie. I'm gonna take you to court and make you pay for, you know, and you don't wanna ever get to that point.

Mh right? And also you can't control your coherent no matter what. And a lot of times, and this is another 1 of these issues, these c parenting gains is even a good parent will resort to parental ultimatum. Mh. Right?

They'll say if, like, you don't do this then I'm gonna do this. And and they're using it to essentially control and manipulate the other parent. Whether it be... I mean, sometimes, like, it it seems perfectly reasonable. Right?

Let's say your stops. Being child support or something, you can't then say if you don't pay your child support, you can't see your kids. Right? That's an ultimatum. You can't do that.

Another thing is maybe if you don't do, A b and C, I'm not gonna be child support this month. Right? That's just as it's just as bad. You can't do that either. So...

But what it's telling you is a c parent feels like they're at their rope and they can't go what they want any other any other way, so they're gonna give you an ultimatum. It's and in that situation, you just have to stay calm and realize understand that you don't have to be controlled by your hypo public c parent. In order to get what you're legally entitled to. Right? I had a client who was submitting itemized receipts.

Mh. Have everything she spent her money on every month in order to receive child support. And I had to tell her your child support his court ordered. You do not need to No submit the documents to him every month in order to receive it, and She's like, well, I have to prove that I'm spending on this this smith, and I said, no. You don't.

You literally... You went to court. You got your court order. You have a court order child support. Period.

That's it. That's all you needed to do. Now you're just entitled to it. You should get it. So I think it's important for parents to connect with their truth and understand what they...

What rights they're entitled to. And then set a clear boundary. Right? So if your c parent did say, if you don't do this, I'm gonna just stop paying child support, you could just say, Well, that's unfortunate, you know, that you think that you can do that, you can't. And, unfortunately, if you do that, I'm just gonna take...

It to court and then have the child support come directly have your paycheck. Right? And that's when you seek legal support if necessary, but you connect to your truth and understand that you don't have to be controlled and manipulated by your high conflict. Coherent. Right?

And that's not... And and then you even even if you're in a situation where you think that you can justify you really can't... You cannot give those ultimatum. You can't try to control your coherent. Yeah.

So... Yeah. What strategies do you have when the other parent is placing blame on you, and this is something that you might be hearing it from the kids of mom or dad said that you are to blame, you know, for the divorce and for the separation, navigate. I think that's a good 1... Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. That's another 1 of these games that these high conflict appearance play. Right? It's called I called it the I wish game.

And it's it's... I wish we could I wish we could be a family again. It's... But it's your mom's fault. We're not together.

It's placing blame on 1 of the parents. And then also, it gives the child false hope. Well, maybe if we can get mom on the same board, We can all be a family again. Right? Yeah.

So this is definitely an issue. You have to address with your c parent. Send of a talking parents message, say, like, within our child's coming home seeing things, and it's not healthy. It's giving them false hope. Please stop doing it.

And not... When you when you bring it up to your c parent, we're not expecting them to change. If they're a high comp... If they're high conflict, they most likely we will continue to do it. But you're documenting that it happened.

Right. So you have to bring it up to them because you're also authenticating evidence for when you end up in court. Right? Right. So your child comes home me.

You're not gonna to let it go. Right? You're going to send them a talking parents message, say our child in home saying this doing this, whatever. You're... Reaching out.

You're saying, hey, this is what happened, and you're not gonna blame them you're be like, did you do this... Did you say this to her? You say, Hey, our child came home saying that you wanted to get back together? Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Mh.

Right? Mh so then they're going to respond to it. They're acknowledging, yes, this conversation did happen, and here's how it went. Even if it's their side of the story. Yeah.

You know, And I told her that you broke our family up, and you... We'll get guess what you just got. You just have Got the evidence needed. Right? If it does eventually end up family court.

But as far as navigating that with your child, you're definitely gonna acknowledge your child's feelings first and be like, I'm so I'm so sorry that this is gonna be confusing. Right? Or whatever whatever feeling they're bringing up. You're gonna acknowledge it. You're gonna validate it.

It's okay to feel that way, it's normal, and it's normal to miss us all being together as a family. But I need you to know that this is a permanent decision that both parents made. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

It's not anyone's fault. And now that we're in 2 homes, we can both be happy. Right? Because before we weren't happy. And now we're now we are, and we have this opportunity to be a happy family to together again, that that looks different because we're not together.

So you're gonna highlight the positives of it. And then just you're just kind of telling them the truth your this is... You know, it's no... I really like the phrase. This is no one's fault.

When when, talking about divorce, because if you say to your child, I don't know. I was like this I was overly sensitive. You've child. But if you said something to me like, oh, don't worry. It's not your fault, and I would think Does that mean there's a possibility it could be my fault?

I know that you're saying that it's not. But is it? Right? So if you don't introduce that concept, that could possibly be their fault you don't wanna do that. So I like to tell parents to use the phrase.

This is no one's fault. It's an adult decision, it and sometimes and it's sad, and I'm sorry it's happening. I'm sorry It's happening to you, but divorce only happens between our divorce and separation it happens between parents. But I will always love you, and I will always be here for you. And if you wanna talk about it, I can, We can.

Mh. Right. Yeah. So just kinda... But when your high conflict parent is trying to blame it, but place blame on you, tell them not the truth.

You want tell me ugly, oh yeah. Yeah. Details of whatever happens to split you up, but, you know, just a kind of generic age appropriate version of how... What happened to be your dad and I, your mom and I learned that we couldn't get we couldn't stay together, no matter how we tried, and it's an adult decision and has nothing to do with you. Right?

Right. And it's that was weird. That was like a... If That I was like a back seat in the minivan. You dry.

Yeah Yeah. Now be where you're going. But you never an offered opportune time to talk about, you know, and they bring it up and you're, like, why did you just say? Okay. Hold on.

I need a minute to, like, what am I supposed to say? Situation. Right? They see the most out of left field. And then all of a sudden you're expected to be the mother of the year, parent of the year and explain to them with ease why you got divorced.

Right? Exactly. Exactly. Look yeah. So, yeah, You gotta prepare for it because it'll it'll come at the most in opportune time.

It... Absolutely. And I like... I like what you've said too. It's, like, just having some of these having some ideas of what you will say when these things come up, you know, obviously, you know you know, like you said, it's gonna come in in opportune time, you're gonna be thrown off, but at least, like, you know, having this framework of, like, We both love you.

The stories may be different, but, like, you are valued and you can talk to me and you know, I support you is really the foundation of of all of it. I did notice that, you know, you do... You referenced you talking to the other parent, and I think about some of it. Like you said, like I sent a message, you know, you document the issue. I think In the beginning, I remember doing that a lot and as time went on.

7 years. I I do it a lot less because I've gotten a lot of the same responses. Mh. I'm trying... I'm like, thinking of a lot of my clients at once as I say this.

And I think it's important to share what the child is saying, and yeah. What I typically tell people is if we're gonna do that. Almost don't even expect a response. Like, you're doing it because you wanna share what is going on for your child, but don't expect a response back because that also will set you up in a place to not be defensive to whatever response you are getting at, if you're a liar, that's not true. They actually said this and you brought this up to them because you're taught...

You know, it's like, it goes Blame blame blame blame blame blame lane. Right. And they will. Yeah. They will twist it and try to make it.

Well, maybe it's because you've been talking to them about this, and Mel twist didn't try to make it. Seem like it's your fault. When you're just honestly bringing up with certain. But you're kind just bringing it up to document it, like, this actually did happen. Right?

Mh. Yeah. Is there like a threshold that you have in mind of what you would communicate and what you would not? Or maybe how many times a child brings something up? Yeah.

When it's clearly, like, I have things that I know affect the children. Right? So I know that and asking your child to spy can cause this loyalty bind. I know that it can, it is a detriment to, like the other parents relationship. With their child.

Mh. So I guess I would just say, but you wouldn't know that unless you a c parenting specialist, any research at or a therapist. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

So I guess if they're exhibiting behavior that, could potentially you know, like coming to do you and, like, crying and saying, why did why did you break our family part that? To me, that's an issue that needs to be taken to a a therapist. Right. Right. So if it's causing a big feelings, and or behavioral issues, it needs to be addressed, and you need to take it to a therapist.

Because you shouldn't have to be dealing with the the constant counter parenting. Right? Little issues like they left the hoodie. I would just... Send them an message and say, hey, next chance to get, we left the purple hoodie over at your house again.

Can you please? And if they don't don't expect them to return it, they won't Mh. They won't go out of the way to even look for it, probably If they're... Is there a high public c parent. But at least you set it.

Right? And then you could sleep at night knowing that you. Tried. That was your pride. You don't have to own and over over over again.

But little issues like that? Okay to let go. Big issues, like your child negotiating with you, that's another thing. If they're asking you questions like, well, if we moved into a bigger house, then could we be a family again Could we all live together and be a family again? That sounds like a, oh, that's a fun idea, No.

No. That doesn't work that way, But what that's also telling you is that your child is negotiating with you, which means they think that they are responsible for fixing the problem so that you guys can be back together again. So that is something like it's the sign of, oh, we. She feels responsible for fixing or key or my my child feels like they're responsible for fixing this, so we can be family again. And that's when you need to have a very clear talk with your child about, you know, it's an adult decision.

Divorce happen sometimes, nothing you can do, nothing you should be worrying about to to try to fix it. It's not going to be fixed. This is something that's a permanent decision. Yeah. It's okay.

And lots of family are like ours, And that's another reason why I wrote the book it's because so many. Yeah. To be able to see it in a book and say, oh, look, Stella has 2 homes too. Right? And that's whether there's just discussion questions in back the book to, like, do you know, other children, you know, that that have 2 homes.

My my kid's put as in their school that half of the classroom, their kids the kids have 2 homes. Mh. It's it's normal. If you're in San Diego. Yeah.

Yeah. And I know, like, people say, we don't wanna normalize divorce. Well, it's already normalized. It's already a normal thing. Because.

Parents are getting divorced. And I don't want my children to feel like they're different. Right? I want them to feel like, oh, just like Jessica's parents. They're they live in 2 homes too.

Right? It's a normal thing now, and we're just creating tools and resources to help children coke better. Yeah. And keep appearance out there. Does it said?

Yes. There's not many pulled out there? Yeah. Is there anything on this that we didn't touch on that you feel like, is I know we talked about so many of the intricacies of it that you feel like it's important to add. I would just say...

You know, be with children, behavior is communication. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Say look at look at what's going on in their life first. Are they acting out?

Are they hitting? Are they biting go get help sooner rather than later? Because we're not born? With these natural ability to to decipher what the heck going on your kid and how to help them. So do is much research as you can and reach out for help, get a therapist involved, and, they can, you know, get get you tools and resources to help your child cope through divorce your separation or help counteract the counter parenting that's going on, possibly at your high parents health it's really important to be able to identify certain behaviors in your child and see what's causing it and be able to fix it.

Yeah. And just to add that, just looking at the patterns that you notice. Like, if you're noticing there's patterns around the transitions. It's not... It's not always just the other parent, it might be the transition as a whole.

Or any transitions. And so it's like, okay, well, my... But you're probably managing those transitions on your own in your own home in a different way. And so it's like, okay. Well, there's doubt.

Mike could definitely struggles with transition. So, obviously, they're gonna struggle with different transitions to and from their other home, but they're also going to struggle. Other ways, you know, but you may not be thinking of that because you're already managing that in your own life as well as, you know, when they have these big emotions when they have other nervous stomach and, you know, my daughter recently, like, that... We we definitely have a pattern where, like, she doesn't like Wednesdays. And, like, it is so fun because she'll be like, it's Wednesday.

And I'm like, you should can't adult ready. And it's just she just, like, I just don't... I don't like Wednesdays, Wednesdays. And then she has all these reasons. It's like, none of her favorite things are on Wednesdays at school.

It's a long day. The kids that actually transitioned. To their other parents home happens on Wednesday. So I think there's just a lot of, like, this regulation because there's a lot of 225 schedule in Boston Mh. And so I think she's just like...

It's probably a lot of energy at school that day. Like, weird energy that might be there. That's just... Natural. On top of the fact, there's none of your favorite activities, we don't do any activities on Wednesday like extracurricular.

It's the middle of the week, and as adults hate Wednesdays 2, but I just, like, now we, like, have strategies just for Wednesdays. And it has nothing to do. Yep. With any transition for her to and from another home. And has everything to do with, like, she identified that she has this.

And so you know, she... We think about different things for Wednesdays and like, how to make Wednesdays fun just because it's a day. It's and I I just... Yes. It's funny, but it's like, yeah, That's just our plan.

Yep. And for parents who are dealing with big behavior big emotions. Specifically on transition days, that's expected. Like, this is a big change, and going from 1 house to another is, like, they didn't they didn't ask for this, you know. And so just be patient with them and understand, like, transition days are hard.

For younger kids, my kids. Again, I said they were 10 months old and 2 years old when we started going back and forth. I would provide, like, you know, bring a comfort animal or I drink an anti or their grandma in the car with me to to drop off and say goodbye, a just to kind of ease that, okay. It's time to do this, you know, And then when they were coming back, same, I would I would bring somewhat, like a cousin with me And maybe like, fuck, it just trying to just distract him away from you're gonna be gone from your mom. Right?

When they're coming back. Same. Like, in different reasons, but then they're needing to adjust to my house too. So I bring, you know, little snack in the car, just like, oh, look, I we've tried out these no new little gluten free snacks and just just... You can just...

Win they're little, you can just distract. Them away from it kind of like, oh, there's a... There's a toy that I picked up at the 99 cent store, and something excited, happy to get you in your car seat, dim And then we made it... We we would and drop off it in and out. So when I'd get my kids back, we'd go through in and out, and that would be our dinner at that thing.

So it's something... It was, like, a routine. Mh. And it was something for them to look forward to, and then just... I have to come up with all kinds of stuff, You know, just to...

We're all just kinda of figuring it out. Mh Yep. Absolutely absolutely what works and what doesn't with your your own child. Right? And what's gonna bring them comfort during this transitioned during this big change.

Yeah. Yeah. And 1 last little bit on that, like, I was once given the advice for traveling to get go to Target and get some of those, like, 1 dollar, you know, coloring books games, stickers, like, the stuff that's in, like, when you first walk in that's meant to be just thrown out and I would get those for the plane and then or or other things that we would do and... And then I started to think, like, why don't I just get those on the transition days? So that way, when I pick her up.

She has a little thing to do. Like, she knows it's gonna be there. I spent, you know, a a dollar. You know, And Yeah. You.

You know. And if she doesn't do it or if she feels car sick and then doesn't look at it whatever it is. It's like, it's still there. It's still just a comfort thing of, like, I can distract a little bit associate. Yes.

Zone out. Second. Yeah. Yeah. Mh.

So my kids do better with the transitions now that they're not babies, you know, not toddlers. They're 7 and 9, but still, there's that period of time when they're get further getting used to the rules and the expectation that Mom's house versus dad's. Yeah yeah. And that you know, I don't plan things on the nights that make kids come. I'm not gonna drag them to do a family function or try to go grocery shopping with them.

When they're... Trying to adjust from dad's house to small house. No. I can't plan. I'm not gonna plan stuff, and I'm doing that because I'm holding space for them, to have their big emotions big feelings.

And then also just respecting their their time they might be. They you know, they have a different sleep schedule at Dad's house. They've got siblings at Dad's house and they're gonna they wanna be acc, like, like a little goldfish in their bowl. Right? You gotta meet them to the their environment first before you let them out of the bag.

Yeah. So... Yeah. No. I think that's a really, really, really important point.

I don't plan anything either. And unless... Like a school event or a birthday party, but then I have to be really conscious of the fact that, like, she's most likely not gonna stay the whole time. You know, like, even this week, and my daughter was asking me to, like, go, She wants to go to Carnival tomorrow at her school. They're doing, like, a spring fair, and they're you can volunteer and, like, I was, like, us, this is a lot, but she loves to feel included.

So like okay. Yeah. We can... Why don't we go at the beginning? Yeah.

We'll go at the beginning. We'll volunteer at the beginning because they're half an hour slots, which is good. And then we can enjoy and have fun for an hour, And then I I know she's not gonna make it much longer. I know the d regulation right fit. And I know her well.

So it's like, okay, And then we'll leave. He's a lot, and then we'll sorta of come back down. Yeah. And that's what's great If you're so in tune with your daughter, You could be like, alright. First gonna go check out the vibe and see what's gonna and if you see her start to, you know, spiral.

You could be like, I'm gonna bring her on before this gets. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, normally, we would, like, walk there or take, like, the train and now. It's like, we're gonna drive...

And the car will be nearby just in case it's just not... You know, even if she just needs a break, but, like, like you said, like, it's like not. Having really expectations of what they can do other than that they're react is what's important. And it's just another way that. Right.

Like, you're owning your role as this is what... That, We have 2 homes and this is what we do. Mh. Mh. And this is our normal.

And hopefully other people who are aware of that. I think they are becoming more aware. Like, my my... Family. We'll say, oh, you know, Sunday, can you come up for dinner?

Now. They all get my kids back that day. And like, yeah. Yeah. I'm like, yeah.

But they might not get along with their cousins. Right? Because they're gonna be kind of, you know, probably over retired. I'm probably need time to give them put their fingernails and brushed the bath out of my daughter's hair and give them showers. Like, I we need time by ourselves, You know, our house, to get back on routine.

Right? And so my my family is is it's it's funny because I've been divorced for 7 years now. And it's still I have to remind them Well, Yeah. No. I have clients that night or well, I'm down make kids back that night.

Right? Yeah. No. I have clients my clients that have the same situation. My family's in another state, but they...

Yeah. Absolutely. It's, like, reminding them like, yep. I hear that to you. It appears I'm available, but I am not.

Yeah. I'm like this is it's not at. Right. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for doing this. This was so so so informative. And, you know, I... Like, let...

The our other episodes were... Very important and they talked about the big topics. But I think that these are the kinds of things that, like, people rum about. They think about. They try and figure out.

They're always thinking about, and it's like, I think we probably gave them a lot of tools today that they can. They can implement and they can, like, reframe if they're thinking about it differently. Thinking Well, I really hope so. And I don't know 1 parent who doesn't go oh great. I'm getting divorced.

How do I not scrub the kids? Right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't.

I'd like to educate, I'm specifically exactly. Here's how you don't scrub your kids. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Here's I to do here's what Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's in the script you're saying titled.

Yeah. Yeah. What As you know, I love having you here. So I'm sure I'm sure you'll be back, and I will share the book in the show notes. So that people can go and find it as well as your information, but can you tell us quickly how people can find you?

Sure. My book is called S 2 homes, so by tessa a well, and you can get on Amazon, and my website if you'd like to check me out is kind mama a divorce coaching dot com or you could find me on Tiktok, Instagram, Facebook, I am at coach kind mama. And thank you so much, Jess. For having me on again. I just absolutely love speaking on your podcast Yeah to speaking to you in general, it's Yeah.

Yeah. It's, like, People could probably tell that we are now friends, but we have the became friends through this, So at least there's that we did. Yeah. So... Well, thank you.

Thank you so so much. Thank you.