Sexual Coercion

Sexual coercion is often misunderstood or overlooked in conversations about consent. It involves pressuring or manipulating someone into sexual activity through verbal, emotional, or physical means. These actions are frequently hidden behind societal norms that wrongly portray sex as an obligation in relationships.

In this episode, Nat joins me to break down the harmful misconceptions about sex and consent. We explore how coercion shows up in relationships—whether it's through anxiety around intimacy, unwanted touching, guilt-tripping (like misusing love languages), or interpreting a partner’s refusal as rejection. Together, we identify the signs of coercive dynamics and discuss the steps toward recognizing and reclaiming your own boundaries.

You can learn more about him here: https://alwaysmending.com/maritalcoercion

Transcript

Welcome to the You're not crazy podcast. Hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes in healing from narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others. And heal the relationship with yourself, so you can learn to love in a healthy way. You can connect with Jessica and find additional resources, content and coaching at emotional abuse coach dot com.

Hello, and as always. Thank you for being here. Today, I have returning guests, not. You may know her as always mend on Tiktok. Or Instagram, and we are going to dive into sexual caution.

I have included all of Na links in the show notes so you should absolutely go look at the resources that she has if this resonates with you. But I'm really grateful that she does this work that is very hard. I think for a lot of us to understand and figure out where we fit in and how we have been, sort of shaped by society around some of these areas. And so let's just get right to it. As always, you can find me at emotional abuse coach on Instagram, emotional abuse coach dot com, and you can email me at jessica at jessica connect train dot com.

Hi, Nat. Thank you for joining me. Hi. It's nice to hear again. I'm so happy that you're here.

Our episode. Has really helped a lot of people. People comment on that to me directly all the time. Oh, good. Can you...

Before we dive into anything, just explain who you are and what you do? My name is Nat, for Natalie, and I've been on Tiktok since 20 20 if when my husband moved out. Mh. And I was shy, Now see Christian wife, and I was just learning about boundaries, and I was discovering sexual coercion, and I've spent the last 4 years kind of working through and healing those traumas and dating again and going through a spiritual journey now. All the fun stuff.

Right yeah I noticed like, I... Well, I follow you, so I know this, but, like, are you currently banned from Tiktok? Yes. My primary account that I started with On Tiktok was mend dot me. And I was just finally banned for the last time in april.

I yeah. I have been banned a total of 8 times across all the platforms. Yeah. Yeah. And on Instagram, you keep getting banned there too?

Just once. Instagram won't let you come back once you're banned. There's no coming back. So Tiktok used to reevaluate your account and Okay they would let you come back if they didn't find any real serious violations. But now they've got a 3 strikes rule and you're done.

Well, I... Yeah. I mean, I saw on your Instagram that you, like, are starting to put or you did put your Tiktok into a book. Like, basically, the post can't beat, like, they can't be banned. Finally which I guess?

Yeah. And I I love the idea and I love that you did it. But why do you think that they... Like, why do they keep banning you? You know, it changes over time people change and I think what happened initially was just this public outcry against what I was saying because sex is a needs.

Sex is important. You can't be telling people that they're not allowed to have sex marriage. You know? And so it was just a lot of... Mostly men.

Yeah who were... They called it hate speech. They were reporting me for all kinds of things to do with hate speech against a protected group. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

I'm precisely of men. Yeah. That was the best 1. Of the yeah, They called it. They called it bullying and harassment and it was kinda funny for a little while.

But then recently, it was more just Tiktok itself has just cracked down on the words you can use. Yeah. And I've gotten a violation recently for saying to a man, you are a man, but you are not men. Oh, I was yeah. I was just trying to make a point that he doesn't represent all men.

Right? Right. And that comment got a violation. Oh, my gosh. So Tiktok has just gotten really, really wildly miso, I think is what it is.

Where... A lot of women are dealing with this. We can't say the word man or men. And they can say all kinds of vial things to high I know. I know.

We report it. We get no violation found constantly. I've given up reporting anything because I've... The last time I had something actually valid as a violation. It was actual porn, and it was too.

Wow That's it. Yeah. I have actually, like, just because... I mean, I work a lot with 1 on 1 people. So I have stopped, like, posting on a lot, like, on Tiktok just because, like, you do have to kind of pay attention to the comments, and I just don't have, like, the time and face for it.

Right Yeah. Why, like, taken it off, But, like, when I was on, I would get, like, you were talking about abuse and you said, men and and men get abused too and I'm like, why can't you just listen? And then put your experience in it. Instead of now attacking me. Well, well, those are 2...

Those are typically the men who are abusing. Yeah. Exactly. Because I would get the... I got them on my page, they would say, you know, when I'm talking about a woman having the right to say no to sex, they would say, but that's withholding and that's abuse.

Yeah. So. Yeah. That's where they're coming from. Yeah.

Well, well, I'm sure they're gonna love this episode, but this right It's not for them. And so I actually... I wanted a... I just shared the before we got on that, like, I mean, we did an episode and I felt, like, I went into it, not like, totally Naive on the topic, but Naive on the way in which it shows up in in the world in my world. And at the time I was in a relationship.

I'm not in that relationship anymore. It really helped me think about a lot of things and, like, look at my past and how I felt, like, my first sexual experiences at all were all the pretty cor 7 I was quite young. And I think I was like, 14, if not, 13, like, you know, being called to approved in these other things in all these ways. I was pressured, and I... It probably implants a lot of beliefs in my head.

But as I got older and I started to realize, like, the whole connection, you know, naturally between feeling safe and feeling intimate in myself and being able to have sex, and I had pretty strong boundaries with myself around it, but this last year, I had gotten... And I hernia needed a disc in my back, and I couldn't have sex. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't have sex with my partner. I was in a lot of pain, and the disc was in my lower back, so it was, like, don't even talk to me about its own. And my partner at the time, and I knew what's was happening because I had been following you is, like, he kept trying to pressure me in different ways to have sex or like, maybe it will feel good.

You know, I listened to a podcast today, and they said 90 minutes of sex a week is what keeps couples together. And I just would be like, you're a psycho, like, I'm injured. Let's start there. I am injured and you're finding all these ways to pressure me, and then it would be if it wasn't the words it was the way that he would like, oh, like, rub my back, and I'm like, please don't touch me. I am in insane.

And I remember, like, for the podcast comment. He said that. And I was, like, Why are you saying that to me? Like, are you telling me that so that I feel guilty? I could barely walk right now?

So are you telling me that's why I feel bad that I'm not trying? Like, how is that actually helpful right now? And if I don't agree with that podcast and, like, that way of thinking about it, then, like, how can I talk to you about that? And Mh. He got upset with me and shut me down and said, like, I'm taking away his need.

And I just remember, like, sitting back and, like, I think at that night I, like, went back on your Instagram, and I just... I just was like, well, Like, I know that this is his way and it's been going on for 2 months of, like, trying to pressure me. Into having sex when I physically can't and so that I feel bad. So the minute I can, I'm jumping back into it in some way with him. But I had though, the awareness to just, like, really be, like, no but I felt so grossed out.

Like the whole thing made me feel like, oh my god. Like, I could just imagine how this would be if I was healthy and not wanting to. Yeah. Like, I have this excuse, and that's what is helping me set this boundary, but like, would I be setting this boundary every day. Probably.

You know, and I have a lot of clients that go through similar things, but it was really, like, I think it was just like, so interesting for me. Because then I started to realize how it showed up in different ways. And I know that the first time we did a podcast. I did look, I saw a lot of posts on touching and, like, unwanted touch, and it just like, it really changed the way I thought. And It helps so much.

So I wanna say that, like, wanted it like, helps so much for me to, like, feel really validated in my experience. But I'm sure that in what I just said probably carries a lot of nuance. In the way people are affected by sexual court. Mh. Yeah.

And not everyone is affected in the same way. Yeah. And so I feel like it may be important just to break down the idea of that, even if your partner is saying, well, 90 minutes of sex a week is what keeps couples together, that is absolutely not something that people need to subscribe to. Mh. Well even if we're were true.

Yeah. It's 90 minutes of consensual sex. Right. Right. And so can you help, I guess, like, the listeners understand that...

The, I don't know the controversy, I guess, around like, the need part when it comes to sex? Yeah. So it's... Everything in society has been flipped upside down. From how our bodies are naturally designed to work.

And so the whole arousal system is off by default. Right? Yeah. We're born, we are not sick truly aroused by something when we're born, in... We're not in a constant state of arousal.

Even men, even though when the say men always wants x. Even men are not in a constant state of arousal. There is some sort of stimulus. That gets them aroused. Mh.

Same true of women. So our default is no, and that's what I tell people all the time. Your default is no. No is the default. This makes men at all the time.

They think the default is yes, And if there's a no, then it's my job to convince you to say, yes. But no, Default is no. My default since out of a baby is no sex. Yeah. Yeah.

So. So as I get older, and I... Come into myself and I'm learning about my body, I might start to be aroused by something. So... And we move in through relationships and we're aroused by our partner through the dating phase or through this early part of the relationship, come and it's in those phases when we're feeling that arousal and we're feeling safe and connected to that person, that's all wonderful and valid, and that's when the best sex happens.

But as relationships progress, there becomes this entitlement in some people that they expect that it will just happen without that arousal. They don't understand a lot of times that that arousal is what caused you to want that. That sex in the beginning. And so they expect that it's just going to happen, society has taught that sex is a part of a healthy relationship. So if you have a healthy relationship you're going to have sex no matter what.

And if you're not having sex, then there's a problem in your relationship, which technically could be true, but having that sex forcing that sex to happen isn't going to make your relationship healthier, and this is where a lot of people get it wrong. And when I talk about c men, it is mostly men, When I talk about c men and women, it's people who... There's 2 types. There are people who just don't know, they don't understand and they've been taught by society that this is sex just has to happen because I'm in a relationship. And there are some people that...

So that are entitled to it and just feel entitled to it no matter what, and they feel like it's wrong for them to have to do anything to quote unquote, earn it. Which is not actually earning. It's actually just s desire in your partner. Yeah. And there's this whole idea, I think around that earning thing that it's like, you know, you're you're entitled to their time, like, their money like, all the stuff.

And it's like... And which, like, drives me mad And then it's like, well, that doesn't mean that you just then get sex whenever you want it. Like, I'm not a a blow. You know. Well, when we're talking about money though, that's where...

If we're talking about marriage. Those men who are trying to hang on to that money need to shut the hell up. Yeah. Use my leg. Excuse my lady.

But this is marriage. Legally, that money belongs to the wife as much as the husband. Right. All of the money in the relationship. So money some irrelevant.

But sex is just a completely different thing though. And if you... For people who have a transactional relationship, if that's what they want, sex still has to be left out of it. Yeah. Say you can say, I'll give you a hundred dollars to go shopping tomorrow.

If you do all the chores and don't make me do any dishes, that's fine. But I'm gonna do the dishes and now you'd have to have sex with me. No. No no No. Yeah.

This is not gonna play. Yeah. Yeah. And I I feel like that's what I've seen and this comes up with a lot of my clients or the end up in couples therapy and instead of talking about the, you know, the lack of safety and trust. And, I mean, even consent in this place in their relationship or, like, what would what would lead to that, you know, to, like, if a used woman in man, like, the woman feeling, the the want or the arousal or the...

Intimacy around it. They... They're often focused on. We're not having enough sex, and the woman is focused on. I don't feel safe.

Yeah. Well, she doesn't even know that she doesn't feel safe most of... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And so can you name some signs of not feeling safe? Like, if you're... Yeah see hard deal. Okay. That might be hard good.

The biggest sign is flinch? If you to assist you. Mh. K? If the thought of, hey, we're gonna have sex tonight makes you feel something strange.

Yeah. You're not... If you're not immediately excited about the the prospect of having sex tonight, there's a problem. Because somebody... Unless you really genuinely have a physical problem, but in which case your partner should be loving and respectful.

If you have anything close to fear or anxiety attached to the possibility of sex happening. That's a huge red flag. Yeah. Another 1 would be if he's sex you, sending you dirty text. If that's grossing you out, that's a red flag.

Yeah. That's is something to talk to him about. If you don't feel safe to... If it doesn't feel... I I don't even use the word safe as much anymore or so much because a lot of women will push back on that, and they'll they'll say, no.

No. I'm safe. Even but never hurt me So what I'd say is do you feel like it's not gonna be okay or you're gonna get a negative reaction if you speak up about those texts or about his touching you inappropriately. It's something my ex husband would do and following me up the stairs? I never wanted him to be behind me because he would grab it my butt.

Yeah. And Yeah. And I didn't feel like it was okay to tell him, hey, could you please not grab it my butt because there would be pushback on that. I was punished basically for saying, please don't grow up at my butt. Or.

I actually, I got so frustrated because I had asked, like, 25 times, and then I was, like, like, I was, like, stop. Please just fucking stop. And, like, he was, like, oh my god. I can't believe you just yelled at me in public. Mh.

I was like oh my god. I can't he was a bad guy. Grab my ass for fifth the 15 times. Yeah. Well, it was the other side not the side that's her.

I said no ass rap. Because I'm in pain. You would ask. Like Was just like, yeah. I mean, I even get mad now even though It was like, months, you know, 9 months ago, If not more than that, But I was like, it's, like, you know, exactly what you said, it's like, that unwanted touch.

And I'm asking for it to be respected, and then they're not respecting it. And I I hear that come up so much with my clients that are noticed, like, they'll notice it or even the words, and I'm I'm glad you brought up, like, the texting or things like that because I even had a client recently who said that she was, she actually asked. She was, like, as this considered, you know, abuse. Like, he keeps texting me during my work, like, kinda like, sex me a bit, and I am uncomfortable because, like, I'm not in that mindset, but I don't know how to respond to him. Mh.

This is why in in tandem with sexual coercion, I talk a lot about object justification Mh that actually is where it all starts. It's long before she's even saying no to sex. He's object her. It's so it's og at her lee at her, making sexual comments. Sometimes he's sneaking into the bathroom while she's taking a shower.

And. There was a video of a guy on Tiktok race last year who said who would sneak in and steal his wife's towel while she's taking a shower, so she had to come out of bathroom, naked to find a towel. And then he would get to see her in all her naked Glory. Yeah. And this was a fun game he played, and basically that kind of stuff constantly.

Yeah. And so that's actually what's causing her to not want sex. But she doesn't feel justified in that because she's a wife. Mh there's there's this whole idea that I'm a wife now. This is what husbands and wives do.

And my friends love it, but they don't understand that their friends love it because their husband takes no for an answer. Mh. Yeah. Yeah. And they...

Yeah. They don't feel the pressure around it that if it doesn't happen. It's, like, they will be somehow punished either overt or covert or not or or like know. You know, the goal whole going up the stairs thing. I have a guy that we're real close and we talk about this kind of thing, and he was actually sexually c.

And we talked about it today. He said his partner, his ex partner, complained about him saying some comments as he was going up behind her, going up the stairs, but his immediate response was oh shit. I'm sorry. You know? Yeah.

Like, yeah. That kind of guy? You feel safe with? The guy who's, like, what do you mean? God?

Whoops, you know? Yeah. That that little bit of attic too. It's just like, oh, I don't feel like I can say something now. I just have to put up with this.

Yeah. And then I think it's also, like, the way that they act even even if they're like, oh, okay. Whatever. Something's going on with you today. It's, like, Kinda it, but was puts it on...

Mh. Don't that's it on the other person that it's, like, there. It's them. Not Mh. Not Oh, yeah.

My ex would yell at me for flinch. Oh, yeah. Like it was something I was doing to him. On purpose. Yes.

It was embarrassing to him. It was rejecting him, and I needed to cut it out. And the... Owen, and it was a bad example to the kids. I'm gotta add that.

Yeah. Well, that's actually a really good point too because I was thinking about that. So I'm a single mom. I don't mind holding somebody's hand or things like that, but like, if if, obviously, my daughter knows we're in a relationship, which has been super rare, but I don't really wanna be kissed or held or correct anything. And I think about that a lot.

Like, I think, you know, I'm part of it maybe just be preference of how you wanna show affection to around your kid. But but I feel like it's part of the whole, like, course of a course of control if somebody's basically trying to tell you this is how you need to act in order to show love. Which yeah. Where, like, that's not true. Like that Again, it's not consenting.

It's not... We both have decided this is what we're comfortable with. It's... You're gonna keep making me feel uncomfortable. Then I'm gonna have to tell you that you're making me uncomfortable over and over.

Well, and legitimately, if somebody is actually uncomfortable with a particular show of love, then that's something to talk about in that relationship. And in a healthy relationship, 1 person can say, oh, well, you know, I... Obviously, I don't wanna make you feel uncomfortable. So I'm not gonna do that to you. But then you might also get somebody who would say, but this is actually really important to be, and maybe we need to cut ties and find people that are a little bit more say connected with us in the ways that make us feel comfortable.

Yeah. And I think that when I, like, sort of reconcile some that in my head it relates to the whole idea of entitlement. Mh. But that, like, okay. Because you're my wife or my husband.

You're now entitled to, you feel entitled my body, and I'm sure I know what you think about that. But I wanted... You know, but I I wanted to have you hear what you have to say about that because I'm, like, having trouble even saying it because I'm disturbed by saying it. Talking about like, you know You know, because I mean, but that that's somebody basically, like, saying, like, like, your body's not yours, and I just get to, like, but I want to do with it because now it's mine, and that just makes me feel like, really sick on the inside. But what blame you?

Yeah. Blame you? But your body belongs to you and no 1 else. And the moment you... The moment your mind picks up on that entitlement.

You don't feel safe anymore. And you might not even know why. I was just... I got a quote that I posted on Instagram. I just found it.

The nervous system doesn't care that it's your husband. Only not allowed to tell him to stop. I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

So our bodies independent of our minds will pick up on something that's not safe. And our body will say no. Long before our mind does. And that's the fl. That's the butterflies in your stomach, or the other things that are happening in your body, that's is of why a good part of what I talk about is helping women understand their body and what's happening and to listen to those responses?

Yeah. Yeah. Do you find that a lot of women will, like, either second guess or downplay their natural body responses? Oh, yeah. And I didn't even understand when any it meant when I started all of this.

I didn't understand the nervous system at all. Yeah. It was a year into my tick doctor journey. I started to figure this stuff out. And I actually worked with a somatic therapist, mh who specifically deals with touch.

And working with a nervous system and helping... She helped me receive touch again. It was a very interesting experience. But even just touching her hand was a trigger for me. Yeah.

So we... Our nervous system is the thing that alerts us to danger. That's that part of our body that picks up on things long before our mind does. And so even when our mind can't make sense of it, Our mind is saying, but he's my husband, but he should be safe. He's never done anything to hurt me, our body is saying, no.

No. No, no, no. Yeah. But I can't tell this person no. And that's why.

They... Or if I do say then I'm going to be gil you know, or made to be, you know, feel bad or something as a result of saying no. Mh. Yeah. How that's what makes it unsafe.

Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess, like, I wanna talk a little bit about the guilt trips that... I mean, because that's something that I think people can look out for. If they are feeling gil by things that people might say to them or their husband might say to them.

Yeah. That that, you know, and, like... So I was thinking about this earlier and how it came up to me for me and, like, I made a list of a few of them, and 1 of them is, well my love language is physical touch. And Right. And my response set was, like, you could say that about all the love languages, is honestly, Like, you go through the wall all the time.

Yeah. And I'm like, I like touch too, but safe touch. The other 1 that I wrote down of things. It's been... It's been 2 months.

Yeah. I've been injured, and I don't I actually have a loose, it on my website. I have a website, marital coercion dot com. Mh. And I have a list of all kinds of things that they say.

It's also in my playbook. Yeah. Okay. III will I wrote the men's playbook. Yeah.

Well, I will I will, of course link those. Can you share a few more Yeah. Of what the love languages is... 1 is huge, And I'm actually considered... I've I've been thinking about kind of plotting out some responses to these things to Yeah.

Most of the responses would just be, U. Yep. That's how it is. Mh So, you know, my ex would say. Another period, and Oh, my god, like, so my response today that I didn't have the guts to say back then would be...

Yep. Another 1. It's been another month. I know. Crazy how that happened.

Yeah. So, The beloved languages is 1 is fun though because when Men say that, I actually have a character that I play who's sort of a sn nadia social light. She's the sparkle sparkle sprinkles sprinkled girl. And she'll say, oh, my god, My love language is gifts, and I can't believe you have not bought me another gift. I love that.

Like, I want a new car and you just me know. If you understand the rejection I'm feeling because you won't buy me a new car. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I did it a little bit with acts of service, the not been realizing it, but I was like, oh 0, well, like, if you had gotten the quarters that I asked you to get, like, I don't know. 6 weeks ago. Then bet to replace the quarters that you took for me for the laundry, then maybe, like my, wealth language would be met. Too. Like, I just remember being, like, because I was annoyed.

So I was like. My people... They didn't even... But I love what you I even realize it's, like, because again, it's like, oh, where you're right. Your needs are far more important than my Yeah.

Well, the thing is with needs, we can talk about needs in needs are kind of in a hierarchy. Yeah. There are... Everybody has so called needs. But how many of our needs are really supposed to be met by ourselves.

Mh. Versus expecting other people to meet those needs. Yeah. And which of those needs is actually important versus some of the others that are not as important. So food water air, those are all life threatening needs.

Right. We have to have those. And we're generally, responsible for meeting those needs ourselves. Yep. Yeah.

We can ask for help, but no 1 is responsible for meeting those needs. Now within marriage, it's a little different because obviously can't have a man kicking his wife out on the street. She still needs shelter and it's his legal responsibility to provide her shelter while they're married theoretically. Right? So...

But the hierarchy, as far as I see it, our bodily autonomy, our bodily consent, particularly actually comes before everything else. That is up there with food water and air. Yeah. If it's your feelings of rejection, that is valid and it's still important, but it's not important enough to Trump my need for consent. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, another thing they say is we might as well be roommates. Right? Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

And I say to the men, if you were a better roommate, she'd probably be turned on by you. Yeah. 1 I heard recently was my partner says I'm just withholding sex. Yep. Like she's saying Yeah.

Is a very direct messaging that says it's not okay for you to say no. Yeah. You're wrong to say no, and that is the very definition of coercion. Really? It's anything someone says or does to make another piece person feel wrong for not having sex or to convince them or pressure with them to have sex that So it did...

Could be thousands of things that somebody can say and do. And a lot of times it's a dog whistle. It's something that's unique to that couple that no 1 else would ever pick up on. Yeah. And and I I think it also goes right into, like...

I mean, this is, like, some very similar the sex we were touching on before of, like, this, like, unwanted sexual advances or, like, but, you know, their hand on you or, like, oh, he looks so beautiful. It would just be so nice that we could just, like, and, like, I had a client since she was this was on the... She read this to me. She was like, I literally on the phone with you. I just got this message.

I wish we could just have a slow puck today. She's was like, I can't even look at him. And these are the messages I'm getting. And now if I don't respond back, then I'm I'm gearing up for a fight. And, like, a then they would be talked about, like, how to set a boundary around that.

But, like, those kinds of, like, unwanted messages, then you do... And then it's like, oh, you just you're just not receiving out, like, my care or my love? Or I'm just attracted to you. Yeah. Is it wrong that I'm attracted to my wife but at all time.

Yeah. I say, no. It's it's not the attraction that's wrong. It's the behavior that's wrong. So it's not the feelings that are bad, it's the behavior that's wrong.

It's the behavior that's harmful. Yeah. And then as a... Like, as a result, the behavior, I think you know, that's what... If that's that's what's causing the flinch.

Right? And the the internal an of, like, no. Mh. Oh, I'm uncomfortable. Yeah.

But a lot of people... Like you said they can't. Say that or if they stumble on your page. You know, I often think though if someone's gonna sit there and argue with us, especially like a woman that could possibly experiencing... Be experiencing this, they're probably feeling really uncomfortable in their relationship.

But Mh. They're not verbal it. Say or it just seems so normal because women talk to each other. Yeah. And, you know...

Something that I got... I have a list here kinda their stuff sprinkled in here from the women too, and they'll say things like, well, but you're abusing him if you don't do it. You know, they'll say, just get another glass of wine. Or the the church women would say, oh, honey, nobody likes sex. We just do it.

You just gotta get it over with for his sake. Yeah. It's that it's that kind of messaging that you've got that coming in 1 ear and the husband in the other year... So we have to shift the conversation from sex not happening to kind of what's happening in the relationship. That's making somebody not interested in sex.

It's actually a lot more... It seems like to me, it's more obvious when it's a man because everybody expects a amanda to wants sex. Right? Right. So if he doesn't want sex, Like, with women, we can say there are men who will be just, like, well, well, women just don't like sex.

That's just a thing, which is wrong. But, yeah. They get it in their heads that women have sex for them and that it's normal for them than not want it. But with men, when a man is turned off to his female partner, then where it's more like, oh, what's going on in that relationship. Right?

It is more her fault in that relationship. If there is fault. I don't say fault really. The fault. But I have heard of men who have had abusive of women as partners, and it's that through that dynamic with her that they don't feel safe.

To do things sexual, but they don't understand it Again. They're in the same boat. They don't understand why they're turned off. And so they're just like, I don't know what to do because I know I'm gonna get in trouble if I don't do it. So I'll just go ahead and do it Yeah.

Yeah. Like, she's gonna feel like, I don't care if I don't do this rather than half? I get women in my comments too that will say their husband is withholding. Yeah. And, yeah.

Why are they... Then... That sounds like a great conversation for that relationship to have. Rather than, you know, there's the idea of if it's just like, they... They're withholding.

It's like, no. They're they're not consenting. Yeah. And so what is it? And so if the default is no, if withholding assumes the the default is yes.

Yeah. And you're saying no, as a punishment to withhold sex. But if the default isn't we're not having sex until some... Then until there's some reason to, well, then what is the reason? Yeah.

Why is that not happening? Yeah. And then this is where I think a lot of men would start... I mean, I'm probably women too, but, like, I think it is mostly men. Mostly men.

Yeah. Yeah. I... Sometimes I just break and hate the whole, like, but what... It's like, okay.

I know. IIA hundred percent get get that it is both. But in this situation, I know. And I only bring it up just... Yeah.

For a little bit of balance, but also just because it does present differently from men. Sometimes it can help people see things differently to see it the other way that it is more about the behavior than the gender Yeah. Yeah. And it's just reminding me about, like, the victim mentality that men would go fall into whether it is with others, like, you know, oh, this is what's... You know, oh, she won't have sex with me and you know, makes them jump...

Feel justified to go and, like, have an affair because now they're the victim, the poor victim. That hasn't had sex. And they're staying in this marriage, the sex marriage. How dare they? You know?

And, it really, I mean, it creates an entire other element of... When I talk to people about this, it's like, there's a lot of like, emotionally abusive behaviors and obviously this falls right underneath, but sometimes I feel like it's like, a whole other, like, bracket to address of what's... What's going on because you have to un, like, rep pattern a lot of stuff, you know, to just even see them as, like, they're not the... They're not a victim. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's what position to me to have this conversation in the beginning was because My ex husband was not actually particularly abusive in any other area. Yeah. There were some ways that it trickled out to other parts of our marriage, but it was 99 percent of it was centered around sex. And so there's a the whole different scenario that I had that a lot of women didn't.

Most women have some other kind of abuse happening regularly, and they are not even able to see the sexual part because it's so bad everywhere else. And so when you... Once you can tie in the sex to that, it's like, oh, we did have sex problems. Okay? And it all makes sense, and it all comes full circle.

Yeah. When you talking to somebody and say this is, like somebody new in the comments, and they're they're reaching out because they're actually putting together a lot of the pieces but they're like, super confused. Right? They're trying to together. These things where do you feel like you notice people get the most stuck and, like, they're like, okay, Like, definitely, I'm having this slight bulb moment, but I'm having trouble connecting it?

Oh, it's probably in the needs department? Lot languages, they get stuck on. And also, it's a... You know, I guess, say most of it is Christianity. Mh.

Because most of the obligation, the sexual obligation comes through the church. And you don't see that quite so much outside the church. It's more of a societal yeah, He needs sex. And so once you can get past the part where I can say, okay, even if he thinks he needs sex, don't you also need to feel safe? Mh.

And we can have that conversation. But with, you know, with the women, Christian women in particular, it's a whole different experience talking to them. I have gotten into some long fights with christian women, trying to think back. There was 1 right before my account got banned on Instagram. There was a woman who I got into with who it was all about for her.

It was all about his confidence boosting his confidence, it was... It's this caretaker mentality that as the wife, it's my responsibility to... Be all of this for my husband, and part of that involves, being a, basically a prostitute for his sake. Mh. And Yeah his sex sexual servant, really, And it just so happened I was in a conversation with a man at the same time.

They weren't connected to each other, but, I have a post on my subs stack where I kinda went through those comments with them and that whole conversation. And hers was most disturbing. His was expected, You know, but it's different when it's a woman. Yeah. Yeah.

And she was very sweet and trying to come across it. She was trying to be sympathetic, you know, like, oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you, but you still have a duty to your husband, you know? Yeah. 1 of the things she said was from the bible where the bible says to keep no record of wrongs. Which is code for women to say if your husband has wrong to you, then you're re against him if you don't have sex with him.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and again, like, the no record. So, like, no matter how many times you feel wrong. Right?

You the bad, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so you're using sex as a weapon to punish him if you're keeping record of any time he's wrong you. The it's just incredibly toxic.

Yeah. I I wasn't raised with religion in our our other podcast. The first 1 does touch on a lot of the religious dynamics because that's where... Like, it was more of a... Let's talk about this topic, like, holistically.

And I feel like it... I've never been religious, but I definitely have, like, moved further and further away from it, but I recently as, most people did got, like, obsessed with this, like, mormon show on Hulu. And. They talk about it quite a bit about, like, how like, sex is, you know, it's... Everything is about, like, serving your husband, and I know and, I obviously know it's in a a lot of religions.

And but it just... It is so interesting for me to be, like, kind of really outside of this. I grew up in New York and I live in Boston now. Like I've never really been around. I mean very strong religious groups that the society is like, ingrained in that, and so it's, like, even stronger.

You know? Like, I can walk down the street and see 5 different people from 5 different religions than they may all have part of, you know, like, I mean, they may all have different views in some way, but I think the idea of, like, that it's kind of, like, rounded in this idea of, like, serving a man, just really like, it Mh. Versus me out. But I noticed that that men can't handle their own emotions, and it's a woman's job to play therapist and Yeah. Help him regulate his services system.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So... And, like, that's a really good point actually because that is something that, like, I've also...

I've experienced. I remember feeling like, it doesn't matter if I am tired. If I'm exhausted if I had it, like, the worst day, if I, you know, if I if I'm injured, if I you know, I don't know. If my dog died today, this person would want me to be... I...

There's 1 way I can show up. And I'm not willing to do that. Yeah. But it's, like, that's where I think the emotional coercion part comes into all this too of, like, this constant gil thing, you took put all your needs and ideas and feelings aside. Yeah.

To show up, which is... You, like, you said, it's like, the basis of, you know, sec... It's, like, sex just gets looped. Well, it's painted as this heroic thing that women do for men too. You know, I'll get people that will say, this is the 1 thing you can do for your husband to make him feel wanted and loved, and you can't just do this 1 thing.

Right? If they make it seem like this small thing, but it's no small thing. If a man has well, to take off my clothes and get vulnerable and let him have his way with me is not anything heroic gets terrible and dramatic for me. Yeah. Exactly.

And I'm gonna guess that it's 1 of the hardest things for people to really, like, un un pattern in themselves, especially if they they have such a deep patterning of this is how I'm supposed to be. Yeah. To start to un that. Yeah. It is.

It's a lot of work. And I've spent the last 4 years doing it. Yeah. 1 of the things that has helped me a lot that I bring up to people now is going back to the roommate comment. Mh.

I try to separate now the household from the relationship. So imagine you don't live together. You don't do dishes together. You don't do laundry together. You're not sharing a lifestyle within the same house with this person anymore.

What is your relationship? And a lot of people find that they don't actually have anything? They have no relationship. It's all chores and household and kids and school and work. But outside of all of that, there really is no relationship.

What if somebody was to say, well, sex is how we keep our relationship. What relationship? Yeah. Yeah. Right?

I mean, if if you need if your sex is... If your relationship is failing because there's no sex. What relationship do you have? Yeah. That's a really good way to play it.

I think that would, like, really... Yeah. I can definitely see how that Well I I asked them especially the men. I asked them to tell me what do you love about your wife that is not serving you in some way, and they have a real tough time answering it. It's a great question.

And the first time I was in an abusive relationship. I had a friend asked me that? Like, and he would ask me that over and over again of, like, no, wait, what... Like, would you like about this person? And I really struggled, and he was like, well, you just told me things that you do with them.

So, like, you can golf with somebody else. You can do this with somebody else. Like, you, you and I can go watch football when we laughed together. Like, so We got that cut... Like, what is it of and that?

I mean, it's such a question that, like, stops you and your tracks to be, like, wait. What is the answer to that? Yeah. Yeah. What do I like about this person?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, if the only answer that I have is, like, we have good sex. Yeah.

Yeah. You can also have good sex with other people. Exactly. I know. I know.

Well, there I get people who... Are trying to use sex to save their relationship. Yeah. So it's like a last stop last resort life graft kind of situation. Like, I know our...

I recognize that our relationship is terrible, but I'm gonna try to use sex to fix it. And this is a lot of men because as I've been learning, the men who say they need sex, actually do in a way. Mh. Only because they're so stunt emotionally. So there are men, a lot of men.

Mh genuinely don't feel their emotions. They don't feel love in connection with the woman until they're having sex with her. And it's that sexual connection that sexual release. That all of their emotions come to the surface, and now all of a sudden they're in love with her again. Despite having treated her badly because they were pissed off and angry all week.

So it's still terrible. It's still abuse but these men actually do technically need that sex. It's just really toxic. Mh. Because they they need to get help.

So that they can actually have a real genuine intimate experience with this woman that's not sexual. A lot of these men just can't. They don't know how to do it. They don't have any examples of anything, any sort of non sexual affection. I mean, there's obviously a lot.

There's, like, psychology and their emotional maturity, probably personal butters, but when you think about that, like, the men that, like, put all their validation or their, you know, their release, quote unquote, on sex, which is then putting it on their partner. Mh. What do you think, like, what is them the reframe there for them? So if this is a woman listening this and she's like, okay, If that's the way that they see it, What is actually a healthy way to view this so that they can take with their partner saying to them, and even if it's only in their own head to be like, okay, That's act not healthy. He can all he wants, but like, this is a him issue.

What is that referral. I think of it like an alcoholic. So somebody who's addicted to alcohol, imagine if they were telling people that I need a whiskey. Mh. I need whiskey.

Well, can you have water? No. No No. I need whiskey. You know like, but whiskey isn't healthy for you.

Maybe you should drink water. You could drink juice or even soda or anything else would still be healthier than just having whiskey all the time. Right? So it's about variety. Mh.

It's about a healthy balance of lots of different liquids. Yeah. Yeah but, you know, some liquids are gonna be healthier than others and not to say that sex isn't healthy, but sex by itself with no other intimacy is so destroying. And these men don't understand what's happening to them, but there they are. Losing themselves to this idea that they have to have sex in order to feel validated.

And it's destroying them as almost as much as their wife who except that their wife is experiencing a sexual assault, whereas they are just feeling invalidate and rejected all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Still sucks. That's still bad, not quite as bad as a sexual assault, but they need to get help for that, so they can feel validated in other ways.

So that when sex is off the table, they're not gonna spiral and be and land in a depression or start abusing their wife. Yeah. And not grow more entitled to something that their wife is saying. I... You know, like, no.

This isn't healthy. You know, this relationship to this is not healthy, and we can find what's healthy, but it's not gonna be just me having sex. Yeah. And so it's like asking, hey, can we have a glass of water together or, you know, and he's, you know, it's gotta be whiskey. You Right.

So, like really about it. Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna make yourself sick if you're just drinking whiskey all the time. Yeah.

Yeah. And also, like, there's probably, like, some patterning. For, like, a, you know, a woman to almost like be able to say to themselves look, like, okay. If I can see that every time he's asking me for this, this is him asking for, like, whiskey or drugs or something. And I'm saying, I can't do that because right now I want water And you're telling me the only thing the way that I can connect with you is to have whiskey.

Yeah. Then you're big, I'm not consenting to that. So, like, I mean, I think that's, like, really, it's being... It's like a light bulb moment for me in a way that I can, you know, that... I probably will think about what's going on of, like, there has to be more ways and more healthy conversations than this 1 thing is the thing.

Yeah. I mean, that's a about. And the the healthy conversation is should be centered around connection. How are we connecting? And if sex is the only way we're connecting, that's not a healthy connection.

So there's got to be other connection outside of that. I I have a lot of analog. Another 1 is pie. So let assuming your favorite food is pie, And your partner wants to make you pie because they know how much you love it. That's a really sweet thing in a relationship.

Right? But imagine you have a partner that... Maybe you don't feel like pie today. And your partner gets mad at you because, I made you this pie just for you. Don't you love it.

Well, after a while of this attitude surrounding pie, you won't really like pie anymore. Yeah have to get sick of it. Right? And then now you're asexual because Yeah. Your husband has completely turned you off to pie.

That's sex. Another analogy I use Bowling, you know, you can look it in terms of bowling. This is a fun activity that we do together, I love to go bowling with you. But if you're mad at me when I don't feel like it, then I'm not gonna wanna go bowling with you anymore. Because you've made it not fun anymore.

Right. And if every time, you're saying let's do this. Right? And it ends up in this, like, this way or I can't say, you know what? I only wanna...

I'm not really in for bowling today. Mh. Bowling is no longer safe. Yeah. Yeah.

And after a while of that, if I'm consistently not allowed to dis from Bowling when I don't feel like it, then I'm never going them wanna do it. Not with you anyway. I might find a new bowling partner. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I have to say this just because I'm sure men do this. That's like, well, that's why I had an affairs because you didn't want anymore, which and it even, like, made me a little sick to even say it, but, like, I know that that... Is said. I mean, I've... Oh, yeah.

Well, and I flipped that around on them and I say, well, what did you do to make her or not want it? And is that fair to take away your wife's sexuality by making her not want sex? Because women love sex too? And if you've done something to make me hate it? Then you've taken that from me.

Yeah. I think, like, you know, what brings this all together for me is this the idea of if this was a healthy relationship, I would be able to talk to my partner about this. If we're not experiencing this, but I wanted to talk to them about, like, this idea and how it's important to me and how to, like, make our relationship safer than a healthy partner would be totally open to that. Yeah. Yeah.

And a healthy partner isn't gonna be... Isn't gonna consistently have a problem with you when you're not in the mood. So you're really not... If you had a healthy partner, you're really not gonna get to that point in the first place. Yeah.

Exactly. Every time, like, I mean, I've got on some deep dive of your content, but I won't... You know, like, even the last podcast, Like, when we think about this, it just... It really does bring out probably, how much patterning, we have of just accepting a lot of this, and. I mean, obviously, how hard it is to reframe it, but just to consistently...

Like, almost have those conversations with ourselves of Is this what I want? Like, is this feel healthy? Can I say, no? Do I have agency around this? Does it feel like if I say, no I get punished every time?

You know, for me, it's like, well, that the safety that would be around if we could have these conversations with our partners that actually shows us that, like, they do respect us. Want to feel safe. And it's, like, the standard of what... You know, I always... I mean, everything I think about it.

It was goes back to my daughter of, like, how I would want my daughter to feel in all these moments. Her to feel pressured. Never want her to feel like they she doesn't have, you know, that agency and that she can't say, are you crazy? No. Well, I talk about it with my kids in non sexual terms too, just, you know, if a kid at school wants to borrow your pencil, and you say no.

How are they were gonna react to you? And how would that make you feel the best depending on? You know Are they gonna say, oh, okay. No problem. Or are they saying, why not?

Yeah. Right? Yeah. How does that make you feel and do you feel like you can... Stand up to them and say, it's my pencil.

You can't have it. Yeah. As in it's my body. Yeah. Have it.

Yeah. Yeah. Are there any books or resources that you recommend on the topic on this topic? Oh, yeah. The first 1...

I'm like christian the 1 that helped me out was... I always forget the title of it. I know when it looks like. I'm yeah. I'm I'm looking it up on my website.

Let's name our website quickly. It's okay. It's always mend dot com. Yes. Mend.

I have a link on there under category learn. I have recommended books. And so, oh, the great sex rescue by Sheila Greg is written for Christian women. About obligation sex, and she's done a lot of studies on how obligation sex actually drives Lab veto down. Okay.

And causes all kinds of sexual problems. Another good 1 is come as you are by Emily Na, That one's really, really popular as far as just getting to know your body and understanding your sexuality. I actually have that 1, and it's my books shop, and I never I never opened it, and I I wonder... It's like, it's my internal block around, like, leaning into my own sexuality, which when you talked earlier about, you know, got... Like, it took so long to feel like anybody could touch you even, like, in a safe way.

It's sometimes Yeah. It's we think of that. Of, like, you know, if I really explore this, there probably is stuff in there for me to work through around like the safety of it. Yeah. And it's a lot of just for me.

It was helpful and just under standing that my body isn't going to be turned on sometimes. And that's okay. You know, I was under the impression as a Christian wife that it... None of that mattered, and I still had to do it. And so that book helped me understand that, no, that's just not how my body's design.

Not supposed to do that. Has your husband ex husband ever acknowledged that he was sexually cor? No. He has no idea what I'm doing on tech. I remember initially trying to say something to him, and it was more just like, well, I felt like it wasn't okay for me to say no.

And I felt like I just had to do it, and it didn't feel right, and it kinda felt, like, rape, Lena, I had that kind of conversation toward the end of our marriage, and he blew up and was like, well, how do you think that makes me feel. Oh yeah. You're making your money. Now you're blaming me. Yeah.

And so it is... I never felt like, I could ever tell him. It's amazing that you're able to have this platform and to still have the safety around that. Like, you know, he doesn't know. You know, Or, like, he has no idea.

Yeah. I've gone to a lot of trouble to stay anonymous. I don't use my real name, and I block anybody that finds me that might know him. Yeah. And luckily, we didn't run in the same circles, that we had separate friend groups, and So all of his friends and family are blocked, and it's a...

It's just a whole... We're all separate. So it's okay. And I I just keep it that way mainly for the kids. Yeah.

They're adults and they're out on their own in a couple of years. You know, that maybe it'll be a different story. That's why I'm working on the other book. Yeah. Yeah.

That could take me a year to put that together. It's called a thousand days on Tiktok. Yeah. I saw it, and it's, like, I love the format because it's super simple. It's just, that yeah.

Yeah. I've I've gotten through. I'm going through all of my videos from December, November and December 20 20 up to, you know, a thousand days. So which is lands around the middle of last year. And I'm just kind of going through in a journal format to talk about everything that I was experiencing throughout my journey on Tiktok.

That's amazing. I thank you for doing that and putting it in a place where it can't be... It can't be banned. It can't be banned. No.

Yeah. You can get a print, and it'll just... It'll... My goal with it too is to make it more auto and less specifically about coercion. Yeah.

So, yeah know, it's just... A woman could safely have it in her home theoretically, and a husband wouldn't get mad. Yeah. Well, I'll get mad. Well, baby, but if he knows me, If he knows me, he should keep his mouth shut.

Yeah. Yeah. But... Yeah. But I I also wanna make sure women know that they can heal.

Yeah. Post divorce wanna not pray of it. I went through some... A lot of therapy and got to healing. I ended up having another relationship and a lot of almost everything that my husband put me through has been mostly healed.

Now, Mh. And I have enjoyed good sex again and... Yeah. So that's important for women to have that hope. Yeah.

And I do appreciate that you talk about that in that relationship on your sub and on, on your Instagram. About the relationship that came after and all the learning that you had. I feel like yeah. Feel, like, 1... Like, it can be so difficult.

You know, after like Yeah. And well, and new things are triggered all the time. Yeah. I had 1 just this morning and I posted a video this morning where some old thing from a marriage came back to me, but it's so small now. It's small moments that make me tear up for just a minute, but then it passes.

Yeah. I still have emotional flashbacks. That's something to look into as the years go on, they get less and less, but I do still have them. Yeah. And you're still healing.

Yeah. It's ongoing. You know, it can take the rest of our lives, but it it just dissipate over time. It gets easier, and it takes... The crying isn't, you know, all day long anymore.

Yeah. Like I said, I might just get choked up a little bit, and no tears actually come out, but, I'm still feeling it and releasing it. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for saying that too. So that way...

You know, are... I think that's such an important point is that the healing is going to continue, and it will, like, continue to shift and look different and it's okay to be triggered. Yeah. Is that you're actually... You're going through it.

Yeah. Triggers are good. I see it now as kind of like, it's a shovel. Somebody handing me a shovel to say, hey, there's something you need to dig up and look at it. Yeah.

And then I dig it up. I look at it. I deal with it, and it's gone. Yeah. Well, thank you so so much for coming back on here and joining me and and also for the work that you do.

Anytime I have a client that comes to me that is, like, you know, and I noticed that it's a part even in, like, our very early times together, I always send them to your Instagram or doc gonna tell them just to start, you know, But appreciate that. I'm like, I've seen a lot of... Referrals actually, I'm meant to mention it. I've seen a come from your subs. Oh, that's amazing.

Yeah. I have plugged you a few times because, like I said, like, this was a topic that... So maybe I think I understood the coercion part. I wasn't understanding the connection all the time. But then once I did, it was, like, the slight bulb moment, and I have conversations with people all the time about, like, it's not okay.

You know, or, like, here... I I your All say, I think you need to go in look through some of this content. And then let's just have a conversation about it. Just tell me what is coming up for you. But it...

People have said it's very validating to hear anybody talking about it, but also talking about it as bluntly as you do. Yeah. Oh, I am blunt. Me too. And that's why I think they thank you because that's why they like me.

I don't wanna waste time words and sugar coding. No. No. Well, like I said, thank you. And I I hope we could do this again, you know, so Oh into it.

And if you could just close out and tell us where we can find you. Okay. Yeah. You can find me at always mend dot com. And at tiktok, always mend.

And Instagram always dot mend. Yeah. Yeah. And if you think that she blocked you, she might not have. Yes.

Yeah. Just a new account. Yeah. Oh, yes. If you were following mindy dot me, either on Tiktok or Instagram.

I'm very sorry if you've not been able to find me, and it looks like you're blocked. That is not the case... Though... Both of those accounts are gone. Yeah.

On threads also. In fact, threads is where I will often post raw thoughts before they become a post or a video. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

Well, again, thank you so so much, and I really hope that we can do this again soon. Yeah. We too. Thanks. Alright.

Bye. Bye.